Mr. WIGGINS. Quite apart from their emotional feeling, what do you expect would be the reaction of those in attendance based upon your personal experience? Mr. LYONS. Those who attended? Mr. WIGGINS. Those who witnessed the desecration. Mr. LYONS. This is opinion on my part. I think that most of those who witnessed, physically witnessed the desecration, the flying of the Vietcong flag, the burning of the draft cards, were all sympathizers, those who were physically in attendance, and I think to many of them it was a lark. Mr. WIGGINS. Do you think that there is an unreasonable risk of physical harm to persons or to property of those that are in attendance and witness the burning or other desecration of the American flag or property in the immediate vicinity of that act? Mr. LYONS. Possibly. It would depend on location and circumstance. I think if this were to take place at a patriotic exercise in a community, in which the people were out to celebrate the Fourth of July or something like that, you would have a riot on your hands. Mr. WIGGINS. If such a riot developed, sir, do you feel that there would be a risk of harm to those who opposed the act of desecration as well as to the man performing it? Mr. LYONS. I am afraid that those who love and respect the flag might lose their tempers momentarily and do something violent. Mr. WIGGINS. And thereby threaten even themselves? Mr. LYONS. That is right, I think that law and order should prevail, and if we arm the authorities with the proper law, with the penalties that go with it, then we would find that it will be a deterrent. I think that most laws we enact are enacted as a means of deterring, I don't think we have to wait until a thing gets to be an epedemic until we call a doctor. This is an indication now that there is something wrong. There is something basically wrong when people can do things like this, so we must take means to stop them, but we are not trying to stop dissent. Mr. WIGGINS. Thank you, sir. Thank you very much. Mr. ROGERS. Thank you so much, Mr. Lyons and Mr. Webb and Mr. Mears. We are sorry that it took so long to get to you, but we appreciate your patience in staying with us all day long. Mr. LYONS. We are happy that we had the opportunity to have someone to listen to us express the opinion of our colleagues. Thank you very much for hearing us. Mr. ROGERS. I am sure from what you heard here today you will be able to better explain to your membership the objectives of this legislation. Thank you so much. Mr. LYONS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. McCLORY. Excuse me. Mr. ROGERS. Go right ahead. Mr. McCLORY. I wanted to reiterate the request of my colleague, Mr. Poff, with regard to hearing testimony from the Attorney General concerning this legislation, especially because of the questions that are raised, the constitutional issues that are involved, the possible conflict or preemption of State legislation, which he would be best able to comment upon. Mr. ROGERS. That will be taken care of in due time. Mr. McCLORY. We don't have a schedule on his appearance at the moment? Mr. ROGERS. Not yet, but it is in the process. There will be received for the record the statements submitted by our colleagues, Representatives de la Garza and Watson. (The statements referred to follow :) STATEMENT OF HON. ELIGIO (KIKA) DE la Garza, a REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS Mr. Chairman, members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak a few words in support of my bill, H.R. 8927, to amend section 3 of title 4 of the United States Code to prohibit the mutilation of the flag anywhere in the United States, and for other purposes. Like most citizens of this country, I am appalled at the demonstrations in New York City and other areas of our country. It is terrifying to see the way our American flag and our American way of life are being desecrated, and with apparently little, if any, action to stop it. For the sake of the freedom of the majority and for the cause for which our young men are dying in Vietnam, this sort of thing, in my opinion, must be curtailed. I am very concerned that no penalty exists for mutilating the U.S. flag, with the lone exception of within the District of Columbia. Title IV, section 3 of the code sets forth the penalties for mutilating physically or casting contempt by word on the flag within the District of Columbia. I introduced H.R. 8927 to amend the above provisions of the code to extend them to every State in the Union. In addition, my bill would up the maximum fine for violating this statute from the present $100 fine or 30 days imprisonment or both to a fine not exceeding $1,000 or by imprisonment for not more than 90 days, or both. As a representative of the people and of justice, I urge you, my colleagues, to assist me in helping restore some form of personal integrity, national responsibility, and basic Americanism by favorable consideration of this bill. It is mighty discouraging to try to win a ball game when your own cheering section is rooting for the other team. It has been a privilege to appear before you in behalf of this bill, Mr. Chairman, and I thank you and the subcommittee members for their time. STATEMENT BY HON. ALBERT WATSON, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA Mr. Chairman, my statement to the committee today will be brief. Certainly all of us are aware of the importance and gravity of these hearings, and I want to commend the gentleman from Colorado and the other members of this subcommittee for their diligence and keen awareness of this incredible business of purposely mutilating the Flag of the United States. These hearings are a manifestation of your interest in this critical problem, and I am privileged to appear before you today. My position in this matter is clear. After hearing of the burning of the American flag by a group of leftists during the so-called Vietnam Day demonstration on April 16, I immediately prepared my bill, H.R. 8804, to amend Title IV. Section 3 of the Code to extend its provisions to every State in the Union. I might add that my bill was not so much in reaction to the incident on Vietnam Day, but rather was the implementation of previous plans to introduce such legislation. Last year, I strongly supported a bill introduced by my good friend from Indiana, Mr. Roudebush, to attain this end. However, I must admit that my pleas last year went unheeded and, ironically enough, it took the episode in Central Park to put this issue in its proper perspective. While the punishment provided in my bill is not as severe as that called for in many of the other measures, I do believe these flag burners should be subject to at least one year in jail. That should help deter this deplorable conduct. Although some may question our efforts here as a denial of free speech, I know of no Member of Congress who wouldn't take exception to the multilation of this country's flag. Too many of us here right in this room-have fought beneath the Stars and Stripes on untold battlefields forgotten by historians but forever enshrined in our memories. And, yes, there are those of us who saw our comrades and loved ones for the last time as Old Glory was draped across their caskets when the final roll call was sounded. That flag symbolized everything they stood for and everything this nation stands for-dignity and freedom for every individual embraced by America's shores. For me to fail to attempt to prosecute those who would purposely destroy that flag would be a serious evasion of my responsibility to every fighting man who died in its defense and who is fighting for it this very hour in Vietnam. During remarks on the Floor upon introducing my bill, I pointed out that flag burning is only the beginning of a calculated scheme by the enemies of this nation to destroy every outward symbol of our way of life. For a minute, allow me to analyze this point. Let us assume that a foreign visitor were to interview a class of 50 American grade school children, and he asked them what physical object best represented America. I dare say that 49 of them would answer, without reservation-the flag. Yes, for the millions of American children who have sung the National Anthem and made the Pledge of Allegiance for the first time, the flag at that point becomes a sacred object to them. As they grow older, they also gain respect for our wonderful institutions but, in the first instance, their little voices are raised in praise for their flag. Now, imagine if you will the tremendous psychological trauma Americans feel when the flag is publicly disgraced. Of course, they are incensed and their immediate reaction is "what can I do?" To tell these people that absolutely nothing can be done would come as a terrible shock. Americans everywhere experienced that shock when nothing was done about the Central Park desecration. Of course, there are state laws in this area and nothing in our efforts here should be construed as superseding these laws. But, a federal statute would put teeth into the actual enforcement of the provision and additionally would clearly demonstrate to the American people how Congress feels about this matter. As I further pointed out, defacing of the flag is only a bad precedent if allowed to go unpunished because, taken to a logical second step, the next public desecration could be the destruction of such symbols as national monuments. Indeed, the more bold of these anarchists might try to destroy in the near future the greatest structure of our Republic—the Capitol Building itself. My remarks today are not aimed at support of my bill or any one particular bill for that matter. I will leave the drafting of this legislation up to my very capable colleagues on the Judiciary Committee. But, a bill is needed, and a strong one. We are in the midst of serious times when the enemies of this country are more diligent in their attempts to destroy our way of life than at any time in our history. The flag desecrators are professionals, and they mean business. Theirs is no student prank to be dismissed with a token slap on the wrists. Anarchy breeds anarchy and, unless nipped in the bud right now, we will have lost a golden opportunity to meet our commitments to the decent law abiding citizens of this country-citizens who seemingly are forgotten these days. Once again, I want to thank the Chairman and members of this Committee for taking of their time to listen to my remarks. Mr. ROGERS. With that, the committee stands in recess until Monday, May 15, at 10 a.m., when Members of Congress and the American Flag Foundation will be heard. (Whereupon, at 4:40 p.m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Monday, May 15, 1967.) H.R. 271, AND SIMILAR BILLS, TO PROHIBIT DESECRATION OF THE FLAG MONDAY, MAY 15, 1967 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10 a.m., in room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Byron G. Rogers (chairman of the subcommittee), presiding. Present: Messrs. Rogers, Whitener, McClory, Wiggins, and Poff. Present also: Benjamin L. Zelenko, counsel, and Donald G. Benn, associate counsel. Mr. ROGERS. The committee will come to order. We have the great honor of having before us the Honorable L. Mendel Rivers, the chairman of the Armed Services Committee of the House of Representatives, who is also interested in legislation and has introduced H.R. 8699. We welcome you, Mr. Rivers, and you may proceed in your own manner. STATEMENT BY HON. L. MENDEL RIVERS, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF SOUTH CAROLINA Mr. RIVERS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, let me say in expressing my deep appreciation to you for permitting me to be heard first this morning, that you, sir, have my grateful appreciation, and also my high regard, as you know. We meet each morning for breakfast and swap pleasantries Mr. ROGERS. It is always a pleasure to have those conversations, especially when you have that good ham. Mr. RIVERS. Mr. Chairman, just having completed hearings on the draft, it is easier to sit where you are than where I am, because one gets a different idea about the environment. Mr. Chairman, as you have said, I am author of H.R. 8699, one of the bills before you, the many bills before you, for your consideration to report out legislation, or proposed legislation, on the subject of flag burning. Of course, I am sure my bill won't be reported, but that is not important. What I am here for, mainly, this morning, sir, is to ask you to report out a strong one. I would like to see a Rogers bill. 187 |