Continuing, the Alabamian said, "We can imagine voices of dissent rising against the existing governments of England, France, Japan or even Soviet Russia, or any other country.

"But can we imagine citizens of any of those countries taking to the streets to burn their national flag? I cannot. The majority of the citizens in any other country would not tolerate such outrageous behavior on the part of their country. men."

U.S. Rep. Albert W. Watson (R-S.C.) echoed the Alabama congressman's views. Calling attention to the televised behavior of beatniks who, in demonstrating in Central Park in New York recently against the war in Vietnam, publicly burned the flag of this nation, Mr. Watson said:

"Most of us here have followed that flag during periods of military service to our country, and a great percentage of us have faced death defending that flag. There are untold thousands of young Americans who have paid the supreme sacrifice in defending the flag, and at this very moment Americans are dying in its defense.

"Who among us fails to feel the ripple of excitement when Old Glory unfolds or experiences that exciting moment when the band strikes up our National Anthem. Of course, we all do, as does the overwhelming majority of the American people. Our Flag and National Anthem, like our heritage, are sacred to everyone of us. But, there are some in this nation who are so dedicated to the destruction of our way of life that they would physically destroy these sacred symbols. Such was the case this weekend. While a smelly bunch of unwashed creeps were free to burn our flag, young men of a comparable age were dying to keep that flag waving over a free people."

Thanks to the efforts of men such as Representatives Hébert and Edwards of Louisiana, Edwards of Alabama, Watson of South Carolina and others who take pride in American citizenship, the "unwashed creeps" who are desecrating the flag of the United States soon may be made to pay for their unforgiveable crimes. It is a wonder that a law should be needed for this purpose; punishment for desecration of the flag should be automatic.

One of this country's greatest betrayals of the men who have fought and died for its principles in World War I, World War II, the Korean War and now the Vietnamese War, has been its coddling of cowardly young hoodlums who are so unappreciative of their heritage that they are willing to turn to public acts of treason.

Mr. ROGERS. The committee will now stand in recess until 2 p.m. (Whereupon, at 11:35 a.m., the committee recesesd, to reconvene at 2 p.m. the same day.)

AFTERNOON SESSION

The hearing was reconvened at 2:20 p.m.

Present: Mr. Rogers, chairman; Messrs. Whitener, McClory, Wiggins, and Poff.

Staff present: Benjamin L. Zelenko, counsel; Donald G. Benn, associate counsel.

Mr. ROGERS. The committee will come to order.

Mr. McCLORY. We apologize for our delay. We were attending another meeting, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ROGERS. We have the pleasure of having the presence of two members of the other body, the Honorable Claiborne Pell and the Honorable John G. Tower, who will come forward and introduce our first witness.

Not being familiar with senatorial courtesy, we will let the Senators decide who is going to proceed first.

STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN G. TOWER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF TEXAS

Senator TOWER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Actually, I am the immediate junior of Senator Pell. I relieved him from being the one-hundredth Senator when I came to this body. So I am his immediate junior. He has asked me however to lead off.

We do appreciate your hearing our principal witness here today, Mr. Lawrence P. Tower, who is the chairman of the American Flag Foundation, of which both Senator Pell and I are honorary chairmen.

I might say lest my reputation rub off on Mr. Tower, that we are cousins eight times removed. So I think that is probably far enough that he should be relieved of too much association with me.

We did spring from the same seed, but he is the Yankee branch of the family and I am the southern branch.

Mr. ROGERS. I see.

Senator TOWER. We have of course a number of bills on the flag, both relative to desecration of the flag and to create a uniform standard for the treatment and display of the flag in the Senate.

We know that you are considering several measures here. Rather than comment in detail, I think I will prefer to simply associate myself with the remarks that will be made here by Mr. Tower, the chairman of the Flag Foundation.

(Statement of Senator Tower follows:)

Mr. Chairman, distinguished members of the Judiciary Committee, Senator Pell and I appreciate very much your courtesy in extending to us the opportunity to present Mr. Lawrence Tower to you today. He is most knowledgeable in matters pertaining to our flag, and we feel can add much to your legislative deliberations.

Measures similar to those you are considering today have been introduced in the Senate, and I am hopeful we, too, can soon take some action. Myself, Senator Pell, and Senator Hartke have introduced S. Res. 73, calling for a comprehensive study and investigation of any and all matters pertaining to the display and use of the flag of the United States, with a view to determining the need for, or the desirability of enacting new legislation with respect to its display and use.

I believe Congressman Price of Texas will shortly introduce legislation similar to S. Res. 73, and perhaps you can consider it along with those measures before you today.

STATEMENT OF HON. CLAIBORNE PELL, A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF RHODE ISLAND

Senator PELL. Mr. Chairman, I am very glad to be here joining Senator Tower in introducing Mr. Lawrence Tower to this committee. I am particularly interested in the work that you are doing now, and which we hope to do in the Senate, in developing coherent codes for setting standards in the display of the flag.

I think there is tremendous ignorance in this field throughout the United States. Much of the desecration occurs through ignorance and not through malice. But one of the problems is to try to make sure that our people know what is correct. In order to do that it is up to us to develop the proper code.

That is why I congratulate you on moving toward this legislation, and am very glad indeed to introduce Mr. Tower whom I have known since I was a child and to vouch for him in every way possible.

I hope you have luck in considering legislation and are able to report it out through the floor.

Thank you.

Senator TOWER. Mr. Chairman, may I say that Senator Pell and I will not be able to stay here for the entire testimony. We have subcommittee meetings back over on the Senate side that we must attend. So we hope the chairman will understand and excuse us.

Mr. ROGERS. I congratulate both of you in taking time out and coming over here and introducing Mr. Tower. You leave him to our tender mercy. We will try to find out what he knows about the flag. Senator PELL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Senator TOWER. Thank you, very much.

Mr. ROGERS. Proceed in your own manner, Mr. Tower.

STATEMENT OF LAWRENCE PHELPS TOWER, CHAIRMAN OF THE FLAG COMMITTEE OF THE AMERICAN COALITION OF PATRIOTIC SOCIETIES, INC.

Mr. TowER. Gentlemen, Mr. Chairman, my name is Lawrence Phelps Tower. I am a resident of New York City and am chairman of the Flag Committee of the American Coalition of Patriotic Societies, Inc., with offices at 1028 Connecticut Avenue N.W., Washington, D.C. The American Coalition of Patriotic Societies has approximately 100 associated civic, patriotic, and fraternal organizations, with a membership well over a half million citizens.

My other offices concerning the flag include the following: flag chairman of the Mayflower Society, Society of Colonial Wars, the War of 1812, the Order of the Founders and Patriots, the Military Order of the Loyal Legion and the board of directors of the Sons of the American Revolution in the State of New York, and the Association of the U.S. Army.

At the 38th Annual Conference of the American Coalition of Patriotic Societies, held in Washington on April 14, 1967, a number of resolutions were adopted, of which I would like to read you the following:

Resolution No. 10 entitled "Flag Code."

Resolved, that the American Coalition of Patriotic Societies support Senator Everett M. Dirksen's Senate bill 515, dated January 19, 1967 to prohibit the desecration of the flag with imprisonment of not more than 1 year and a fine of not more than $1,000; and

Resolved, that this Society support Senator Dirksen's resolution of January 30, 1967, No. 73, which was introduced on behalf of the Senators Tower and Pell-and later joined by Senator Hartke and calls for a review of the present Flag Code with a view to determining the need for or the desirability of enacting new legislation with respect to the display and use of the flag of the United States.

I am pleased to respond to your interest in allowing me to appear and testify regarding proposed flag legislation, which has been introduced by many Members of the House.

These bills for the most part are almost identical with the Senate bill 515 of Senator Dirksen, except for two, which state that the penalty for desecrating our flag can be both 1 year in jail and $1,000 fine.

These resolutions are indeed most timely and along with the Patriotic Societies, the United States Flag Foundation, of which Tom

president, shares the alarm of the public, the Congress, and the Presi dent over the worsening of the acts of desecration toward our flag and the shrinking power of law enforcement to cope with the situation as effectively as it should.

As we all know, in 1942, Public Law 829, 77th Congress, second session-Volume 56, U.S. Statutes at Large, chapter 806-when approved on December 22, 1942, became our National Flag Code. This code was originally adopted at a national flag conference in Washington, D.C., on June 14, 1923, and again in 1924.

No fine for desecration to the flag was included as probably no American citizen in those days would have a thought of showing disrespect to the flag.

Because of the omission of a fine at that time all the present House resolutions against desecrations to our flag are most timely and I feel some action should be taken as soon as possible.

I fear this, however, will not put a stop to the present epidemic of insults to our flag since there are those who will flood our courts with lawsuits insisting that their specific act of disrespect is not desecration at all but is a form of "art" or the exercise of their right of artistic expression or free speech, et cetera, et cetera.

The proposed legislation generally prohibits one narrowly defined type of conduct-desecration of the flag. The artist's so-called freedom of expression is unimpaired. Surely, the people of this Nation have a vital and legitimate interest in seeing that the symbol of our Nation and its ideals are protected from dishonor. And today, that symbol is not adequately protected. Of the State laws forbidding desecration of the flag, some carry penalties so slight as to provide no real deterrent.

Some are not enforced. Some are poorly drafted and thus susceptible to successful challenge in the courts. It remains for this honorable committee and for this Congress to give the U.S. flag-in all the United States the protection from dishonor which today, more than ever, it needs and deserves.

Therefore, I urge your earnest consideration of not only legislation dealing with flag desecration, but also serious consideration of a detailed study of the entire flag code, so that greater respect for our flag might be forthcoming.

As the late Rev. Henry Ward Beecher has said:

Our flag is a whole National History. It is the Constitution, it is the government. It is the free people that stand in the government on the Constitution. Every color means liberty, every thread means liberty, every form of star and beam or stripe of light means liberty. No lawlessness, nor license, but organized institutional liberty, liberty through law and laws for liberty.

Our flag carries American ideas, American history and American feelings beginning with the colonies and coming down to our time; in its sacred heraldry, in its glorious insignia, it has gathered and stored chiefly the supreme ideadivine right of liberty in man.

Mr. ROGERS. I understand there is a complaint of the U.S. Flag Foundation, Inc. filed in the Supreme Court of the State of New York against one Stephen Radich, doing business as Stephen Radich Galleries.

Mr. TOWER. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. ROGERS. On the 14th of April of this year, a motion to dismiss your complaint was denied.

Mr. TOWER. Yes, sir.

Mr. ROGERS. You brought this action pursuant to the provisions of the New York State penal law which makes it a crime in New York to publicly mutilate, deface, defile, trample upon, or cast contempt upon the flag of the United States of America either by word or act.

This was just a prelimintary motion wasn't it?

Mr. TOWER. Yes, Mr. Chairman, that situation as it now stands is this: In our civil action we have been allowed the right to sue the Radich Gallery, which went into court and requested that our suit be dismissed. The judge refused to do that. That is the civil action. In the criminal action, only the other day there were three judges who gave down their opinion and they convicted the gallery owner of desecrating the flag. The Radich Gallery was fined $500 or 60 days in jail.

All of these suits are going to be appealed, but the irony is that we are the only ones other than the District Attorney who have ever taken this statute into court in the State of New York to defend the flag.

Mr. ROGERS. We had some testimony of the burning of the flag in New York City on April 15; that no prosecution has been brought. Do you know what the situation may be?

Mr. TOWER. According to the papers, I understand Mr. Chairman, that they are looking to try and find out from the photograph who those people were that burned the flag. I understand that the mayor and the police were going to prosecute, if possible. I haven't heard anything more concerning the desecration and burning of the flag in Central Park.

However, you may have noticed that the district attorney has gone into court to prosecute the four young Yale men who wrapped themselves in the flag on the stage and desecrated the flag in Greenwich Village a short time ago.

That is being prosecuted.

Also, we are supporting the district attorney on the flag burning in Brooklyn. That is coming up very shortly.

Mr. ZELENKO. Mr. Chairman, if I may refer to the case to which Mr. Tower has just made mention and give some information to the committee concerning it. The case is People v. Sidney Street.

Sidney Street was convicted on June 6, 1966, in a criminal court of the City of New York, County of Kings, for violation of Section 1425 of the penal law and that he willfully and unlawfully defiled, cast contempt upon, and had burned an American flag under the following circumstances:

I am reading, Mr. Chairman, from a letter from the district attorney's office in Kings County to Chairman Celler of the Judiciary Committee.

On June 6, 1960, at about 7 p.m. of that day at Lafayette Avenue and St. James Place in the County of Kings, he did then set fire to an American flag and shouted "If they can do that to Meredith we don't need an American flag."

Following the conviction the appelant filed his appeal with the Appellate Term of the Supreme Court for the Second Judicial Department and on December 23, 1966, the said Appellate Term consisting of three justices affirmed the judgment of conviction. Thereafter leave to appeal to the Court of Appeals was granted. As I understand it, the U.S. Flag Foundation has submitted a brief in that appeal.

Mr. TOWER. I have it for you. Would you like it now?

Mr. ROGERS. Yes. We will be glad to receive it.