Senator SPARKMAN. I think they are looking the field over.

Senator AIKEN. Looking to see what has been moved around since the day before. I think we have been doing that for over two years.

Senator SPARKMAN. I think one thing that is bothering Senator Williams is the fact that this shrimp boat was out there so long, but the shrimp boat, if I understand it, was outside the regular patrol area. Our planes wouldn't have been out there now if radar hadn't picked up these MIGs crossing the 24th parallel, and as quick as they crossed it, we went after them.

Senator AIKEN. When you are up 10,000 feet, you can see 50 miles down there.

FURTHER DETAILS ON THE INCIDENT

Mr. COTTRELL. My deputy on the phone has given Mr. Wexler some answers to some of the questions. The fishing vessel left Fort Myers on the 10th of February and was disabled by a storm on the afternoon of the 17th.

Senator SPARKMAN. And yesterday was the 20th.

Mr. COTTRELL. That is three days. Then the MIG-15s were first introduced into Cuba in 1961. These crewmen were picked up at 8:45 p.m. by this destroyer last night.

Senator AIKEN. 8:45.

Senator SPARKMAN. Fired on at 5:35 and picked up at 8:45.
Is that 8:45 p.m. eastern standard time?

Mr. COTTRELL. I guess so.

WAS IT AN OFFENSIVE ACTION?

Senator LAUSCHE. I was going to say to me it looks as if, one, the subject of provocation here and offensive action against our country; two, the potentialities of the Cuban fleet in the air, whatever it may be, to penetrate our land and drop bombs. That is, I don't know whether they have atomic bombs or hydrogen bombs in Cuba. Rusk said that if they have them, they could deliver them with the planes they have. So that you have two things here. One, was this an offensive act against our country, and two, whatever the answer is to the first, what are the dangers to Miami and other places if this fool down there goes wrong?

Mr. COTTRELL. I can't answer the second one.

Senator LAUSCHE. I am not asking you. I am just――

Mr. COTTRELL. The first one, though, Senator, you remember there was no flag on that shrimp vessel. The Cubans had no way of identifying it as an American boat.

Senator LAUSCHE. Well, you just can't understand, though, their firing fore and aft, was it?

it?

Mr. COTTRELL. Yes.

Senator LAUSCHE. Were they playing or just having a bit of fun? Senator SPARKMAN. That is a terrible way to have fun, isn't it? Well, thank you.

Senator AIKEN. I hope Mr. Cottrell is successful in his work.

Senator LAUSCHE. John, may I ask you what is your analysis of

Senator WILLIAMS. I didn't find out enough about it to make any analysis and I wonder if you really have enough information yet. Mr. COTTRELL. From my point of view-maybe I am looking at other angles, too. I am concerned

Senator WILLIAMS. I don't say that critically.

Mr. COTTRELL. Whether or not they have found this boat three days, to me, from my point of view-from the foreign relations point of view if it were out there for three days-I don't know.

NEED FOR TESTIMONY FROM THE MILITARY

Senator LAUSCHE. I do want to make a suggestion to the chairman, that we have been listening to the civilian representatives of the State Department. We have not heard any testimony from the Defense Department on any of these issues that have arisen, and I think that as a member of this committee, the time has come when we ought to hear from the military men on several of the things that have happened down there.

Senator SPARKMAN. Well, the chairman will be back Monday. Tomorrow is a holiday. Then comes Saturday and Sunday. So I will check that with the chairman-

Senator LAUSCHE. Let me take it up with the chairman.

Senator SPARKMAN. Yes, if you will. And we certainly appreciate your coming, Mr. Cottrell. Now, the press is coming in here and I would be very glad if you would stay and answer most of the questions.

Mr. COTTRELL. I will abide by your advice, though I have no desire to get out front.

Senator SPARKMAN. No, but we have a desire to relieve ourselves as much as possible.

Mr. COTTRELL. You are more experienced than I am with the press.

Senator SPARKMAN. However, I know very little to say to them more than what you said right there.

Senator AIKEN. The cameras are just outside the door.

Senator SPARKMAN. They will get you there.

Mr. COTTRELL. I would like to preserve my amateur standing as a Foreign Service officer who is not seeking publicity.

Senator AIKEN. Off the record.

[Discussion off the record.]

AUTHORIZED TO RETURN FIRE

Senator LAUSCHE. George, I think as for myself I want to decide whether the course taken of sending this note is proper or whether we should have precipitately

Senator AIKEN. It was already announced on the ticker that the note was being sent.

Senator SPARKMAN. It seems to me it was proper to send the note. I do feel this, and this is something for the military, as I suggested in my question earlier, if our fliers are not authorized already to return fire in cases like this, I think they ought to be authorized. Our surveillance planes have that authority, that direction, that instruction. I think our planes, these scrambled planes,

ought to have the same. If they find U.S. property being attacked or assaulted, they ought to have full authority to fire.

Senator AIKEN. However, if the boat wasn't flying any flag, how do you know it was U.S. property?

Senator SPARKMAN. Yes, that is really an embarrasing fact. No flag, no sign of identity on the boat to indicate whether it was a refugee runner

Mr. COTTRELL. I think there are a lot of things-

Senator SPARKMAN. It could have been one of the off-beat boats that run from Miami over there.

Senator LAUSCHE. Where did you get the information that there was no flag on this boat?

Mr. COTTRELL. From cables that came in during the night from the Navy, from Key West.

Senator LAUSCHE. Has that been corroborated by the men who run these shrimpers?

Mr. COTTRELL. Yes. What cable-I have seen so many of

them-

Senator LAUSCHE. Is that a right designation, shrimper?

Mr. COTTRELL. There was a statement, and I can't remember which cable, to the effect that there was no flag flying and that the crew members did not have an American flag on board.

Senator WILLIAMS. Does this owner have more than one boat?
Mr. COTTRELL. I don't know.

Senator SPARKMAN. I wonder if they are not out there, Pat. The President's press conference starts in a few minutes.

[Whereupon, at 3:40 p.m., the above entitled matter was adjourned.]

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 28, 1963

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON FAR EASTERN AFFAIRS,

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS,

Washington, DC.

The subcommittee met in executive session at 9:30 a.m. in room S-116, Capitol.

Present: Senator Lausche (Subcommittee Chairman), and Senators Sparkman, Mansfield, and Mundt.

The subcommittee was briefed on the current situation in Laos by Ambassador Leonard Unger.

No transcript was taken of the proceedings.

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