teed scholarship for veterans and then let the administration add the 140,000. I am strongly for these high school students but the whole course since this cold war period is to not let the veteran get a chance and that goes along with the argument that has been made before this committee by the Defense Department, that they have followed a dogin-the-manger theory, that the best way they can induce reenlistments for servicemen is to see that he has no opportunities to look forward to in the civilian life. I do not think that is the way the military force in a democracy should deny veterans any chance in civilian life. That is the whole theory of the Defense Department and we have got to change that and have some justice in our America left for these veterans as well as other segments of people in our economy.

Mr. Keppel, why can we not amend this bill so as to insure, guarantee any cold war veterans desiring to enroll in one of the participating institutions that they will be given as a matter of right the scholarship like this before you give to certain high school students, if we want it? You know, from World War II and the Korean conflict have to take it any way. You cannot make a living on $500 a year. He got a long row to hoe. He will have to borrow money from the institution, the 500 is an incentive thing as Senator Javits pointed out, to give them this help if they have other help. It is not nearly as much an incentive as the GI bill. But at least in this legislation we will not only deny the GI bill the $110 a month, but we will write other legislation. This is the rankest discrimination I have seen proposed in America against any segment of our economy, for that matter. Why can this not be written so as to set up with the amount and not let it go to $500, the amount determined on his need?

Mr. KEPPEL. Without repeating my earlier remarks about the machinery, and the need to assure you there would be no discrimination, I would have to point out that the intent of this title is clearly stated as being related to the special needs of low-income families. This essentially is the focus of title IV. We would of course want to study what you propose very carefully; but I feel that the first point of departure would have to be an analysis of its relation to the intent of the bill as it is presented.

Senator YARBOROUGH. The $500 as pointed out-these are coming from those very low-income families.

Mr. KEPPEL. They would, of course, be eligible.

Senator YARBOROUGH. You provide for 140,000 coming out of high school and junior college together. What about that 500,000 that come out of the armed services? This is somewhere in the-the way this is written that by the time they are out they are past 21; they are never eligible.

Mr. KEPPEL. This is why I said earlier, Senator, we should study this to see that there would be no discrimination against those men and women meeting this definition of "need."

Senator YARBOROUGH. I want to ask the staff here to also work on such a provision, of counseling the veterans as they leave the service. Mr. Lee, I am asking the staff to also work with our staff to draw amendments that would protect the right of the veteran not only in this age, but to have counseling for him when he comes out of the armed services just as you have in providing this bill for counseling for high school graduates; counseling for junior college graduates.

This man graduates from 22 years on the 38th parallel. Let him have the advice of some Government service. He is not getting any except to reenlist. And reenlistment is determined not by this, in my opinion, in nearly 2 years of military service experience. It is because a man has a natural liking for the military service or natural antipathy. This is reached long before school age where they feel they can fit into regimentation or live as an individual. A lot of it is in personality of a person. You are not going to change that personality of a person by denying him schooling when he goes out of the services.

Senator MORSE. The Chair requests Mr. Forsythe and Mr. Lee to take note of the request for services made by the Senator from Texas and work with him.

(The amendment requested follows:)

[S. 600, 89th Cong., 1st sess.]

AMENDMENTS Intended to be proposed by Mr. YARBOROUGH to S. 600, a bill to strengthen the educational resources of our colleges and universities and to provide financial assistance for students in postsecondary and higher education, viz:

On page 45, between lines 11 and 12, insert the following new part:

"PART B-VETERANS HIGHER EDUCATION PROGRAM

"APPROPRIATIONS AUTHORIZED

"SEC. 411. There are hereby authorized to be appropriated such sums as may be necessary to enable the Commissioner to carry out the provisions of this part.

"DEFINITION

"SEC. 412. As used in this part, the term 'eligible veteran' means any veteran as defined in title 38 of the United States Code, who is not on active duty and who

"(1) served on active duty at any time between January 31, 1955, and July 1, 1967;

"(2) was discharged or released therefrom under conditions other than dishonorable; and

"(3) served on active duty for a period of more than one hundred and eighty days (exclusive of any period he was assigned by the Armed Forces to a civilian institution for a course of education or training which was substantially the same as established courses offered to civilians, or as a cadet or midshipman at one of the service academies), or was discharged or released from a period of active duty, any part of which occurred between January 31, 1955, and July 1, 1967, for an actual service-connected disability.

"PAYMENTS AUTHORIZED

"SEC. 413. (a) The Commissioner is authorized to make payments under the provisions of this part of eligible veterans for courses of study in undergraduate or graduate programs at institutions of higher education. The Commissioner shall make such payments to each eligible veteran, who applies therefor, at the rate of $800 for each academic year (as defined in section 409) of attendance by such veteran at an institution of higher education, while he is maintaining satisfactory progress in such course of study, and is devoting essentially full time to such course of study. Such payments may be awarded for a period not to exceed four academic years.

"(b) The Commissioner shall reduce the maximum amount of any payments under this part to any veteran by an amount equal to the amount of any cash payment received by such veteran, or paid on behalf of such veteran, as an educational benefit from the United States (other than a payment under this part), if such payment from the United States has been derived from the service of such veteran, or the service of any other person, in the Armed Forces of the United States.

"LIMITATIONS

"SEC. 414. (a) No eligible veteran shall be entitled to initiate a course of study under this part after three years after his discharge or release from active duty or after three years after the date of enactment of this part, whichever is later. Notwithstanding the preceding sentence, any otherwise eligible veteran whom the Commissioner determines to have been prevented from initiating his course of study under this part within the period prescribed by the preceding sentence because he had not met the nature of discharge requirements of section 412 of this part before a change, correction, or modification of a discharge or dismissal made pursuant to section 1553 of title 10 of the United States Code, the correction of the military records of the proper service department under section 1552 of such title 10, or other corrective action by competent authority, shall be permitted to initiate a course of study under this part within three years afer the date his discharge or dismissal was so changed, corrected, or modified, or within three years after the date of enactment of this part, whichever is later.

"(b) No payment shall be made to an eligible veteran under this part beyond eight years after his discharge or release from active duty or eight years after the enactment of this part, whichever is later, except in the case of a veteran who is eligible to initiate a course of study by reason of the second sentence of subsection (a) of this section shall be permitted to pursue, subject to the other provisions of this part, such course of study for a period of not more than five years after the date of initiation thereof; but in no event shall a payment be made under this part after June 30, 1977, unless the veteran' date for initiating his program occurs after June 30, 1972.

"(c) For the purpose of computing the three-year period and the eight-year period under this section, the date of an eligible veteran's discharge or release shall be the date of his discharge or release from his last period of active duty which began before July 1, 1967, but no period of active duty performed after July 1, 1967, shall be included in computing such periods unless it follows a break in active duty status of more than ninety days.

"(d) No payment shall be made to an eligible veteran under this part for any period during which he is enrolled in and pursuing a course of education or training paid for by the United States under any provision of law other than this part, where the payment of such grant would constitute a duplication of benefits paid to the veteran from the Federal Treasury.

"APPLICATIONS AND REPORTS

"SEC. 415. (a) Any eligible veteran who desires payments under this part shall file an application with the Commissioner in such form and containing such information as the Commissioner determines necessary.

"(b) The Commissioner shall require reports containing such information in such form and to be filed at such times as he determines necessary from each eligible veteran receiving payments under this part.

"(c) The Commissioner shall make arrangements with institutions of higher education providing for reports to be filed in the manner prescribed by him on the enrollment, interruption, and termination of the course of study of each eligible veteran enrolled therein and receiving payments under this part. The Commissioner is authorized to pay to such institutions the costs incident to the filing of such reports. No payment shall be made to such institutions for the period during which such reports were not submitted as required by this subsection.

"EFFECTIVE DATE

"SEC. 416. The provisions of this part shall take effect as of September 1, 1965." 1965."

On page 45, line 12, strike out "PART B" and insert in lieu thereof "PART C". On page 68, line 5, strike out "PART C" and insert in lieu thereof "PART D". On page 70, line 17, strike out "PART D" and insert in lieu thereof "PART E". Senator MORSE. I want the attention of my colleagues just a moment. The Commissioner has to testify before a House committee, I understand, at 3 o'clock.

Mr. KEPPEL. That is right.

Senator YARBOROUGH. I will waive further questions.

Senator MORSE. Senator Dominick and Senator Javits might have some questions. Mr. Muirhead will remain. Mr. Muirhead is in a position to speak for you, is he not?

Mr. KEPPEL. He is, entirely so. I ask the chairman's and committee's forgiveness. The testimony before the Appropriations Subcommittee was agreed upon some weeks before the setting of this meeting.

Senator MORSE. With the understanding from Senator Javits and Senator Dominick that you will be called for further questioning if they do not receive the answers from Mr. Muirhead they want, I am sure they will call the Commissioner back at another meeting. I do feel we ought to accommodate him, and dismiss him now so he can go over to the House side.

Senator JAVITS. Let me ask him one question. If it is a long answer, Commissioner Keppel can come back with his reply.

We have a survey from the College Blue Book which comes to the following conclusion. I have it here under the signature of the editorpublisher:

The results of this study indicate that the capacities of institutions of higher education exceeded the enrollment of students in June 1964 by more than a half million student places.

I leave that question with you, Mr. Keppel, and answer it in writing or the next time you come.

Mr. KEPPEL. I would be glad to answer it in writing.

Senator JAVITS. I will also make available to you the study.

Senator MORSE. I officially request you file a supplemental memorandum commenting on the material that Senator Javits just submitted

to you.

Mr. KEPPEL. I will study it with the utmost care. If it can be documented, it would raise a serious question. We will submit a memorandum.

(The memorandum referred to follows:)

DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, EDUCATION, AND WELFARE, OFFICE OF EDUCATION

We do not accept the conclusion set forth in Mr. Burckel's letter of March 16 to Senator Javits and would point out that it has been qualified in the summary following the foreword to the "Tabulation of Institutional Reports" which has since been published by the College Blue Book. This summary reads in part:

"The analysis of existing capacities and enrollments made by the editors of the College Blue Book may appear to lend support to opponents of Government spending for American higher education, but cognizant educators and students see the facts as evidence of superlative dedication of our leaders to solving one of our most urgent problems.

"(1) The vacant student-places existing in June 1964 have been filled by the freshmen entering in the fall.

"(2) The capacities added between June and September, as well as those presently under construction, are spoken for by the applicants from our next high school graduating class.

"(3) The existing vacancies may be those designed for special purposes, or, in an unaccredited college, or, without necessary library or laboratory facilities, or, in institutions that do not offer the professions that interest our young men and women.

"(4) The best efforts of administrators to schedule classes and match instructors with classrooms (that contain an adequate number of student places) will still leave a lecture or study hall capable of seating 100 students to be occupied by a group of 80 or less.

"(5) The numbers of our youth who will reach college age within 15 years, coupled with an ever-increasing percentage of those applying for admission, will double the number of college students presently enrolled. These youngsters are here now, they have been counted, and they will need to learn medicine and engineering, science and mathematics, geology and astronomy, dentistry and nursing, not listing the applied sciences that will emerge from our continuing explosion of knowledge."

Paragraphs (1) and (2) in the above quotation are self-explanatory. The Blue Book survey was conducted at that time of the year when enrollments are most depleted by dropouts. A national dropout rate of 10 percent could itself account for a depletion between September and June equal to the total surplus of vacancies which the Blue Book study estimates to exist.

The point in paragraph (3) in the quotation concerning the specialization is important. Vacant spaces in men's schools do not represent available spaces for women and vice versa. Vacant spaces in a junior college are of little use to a student who wants to pursue 4 years of study. Vacant space in a school of technology is of no use to a student who wants to pursue a liberal arts program. The questionnaire employed by the Blue Book asks of each institution to provide a figure for "Student capacity," a figure for the "Capacity of dormitories," and for "Enrollment faculty." Data are not requested on the capacity of special facilities such as laboratories and libraries.

Another point concerns the distribution of unused capacity in institutions of higher education. The mobility of students is limited, both by their personal preferences and by the fact that attendance at a college remote from home materially increases the cost of higher education. The latter point is especially relevant to the student who is forced to live at home in order to finance his higher education. Even if the Blue Book study did not-as it appears to us to domisleadingly portray the ratio between vacancies and enrollments, this ratio would in any case have to be interpreted to take account of the fact that a student in one part of the United States cannot be expected to enroll in institutions of higher education at all other points in the country.

On the matter of accreditation, we would point out that the Blue Book study gives data on more than 2,500 institutions. The Office of Education lists in its "Directory of Institutions of Higher Education for 1963-64" only 2,168 accredited institutions.

Finally, we would emphasize that in the period since the administration testified before Congress in 1963 supporting the need for the Higher Education Facilities Act, enrollments have increased more rapidly than anticipated and Federal expenditure has fall far short of that estimated to be needed to help close the gap between funds needed and funds available to expand the physical plant of higher education. Actual enrollments in the fall of 1964 amounted to 4,988,000 students as compared to the 4,775,000 we anticipated in 1963. Actual disbursements of funds under the Higher Education Facilities Act are only now beginning to be substantial. It was envisaged in the Higher Education Facilities Act of 1963, as it was enacted, that grants to institutions would begin during fiscal year 1964. There were no appropriations for that fiscal year, however, and those for fiscal year 1965 were not made until last fall.

Senator YARBOROUGH. May I just ask one question in line with that? Mr. Keppel, if this study were correct, if you find it to be correct or agree with this, that there is room for 500,000 more students in college at this time and 150,000 of these veterans coming out of service each year went to school, or went to college, there would be room in the colleges of America for them now, would there not, and there would be no reason for keeping them out on the ground that they were going to overcrowd the existing facilities in American colleges?

Mr. KEPPEL. There should always be room for veterans in higher education. I would like to study this with the utmost care.

We have a problem as the chairman and the members of the subcommittee well know of a very rapid increase in the generation becoming 17 and 18 which may be a part of this. But I would like to present a much more detailed study.

Senator MORSE. Senator Dominick?