the people there now enjoy in those countries. Take rice as an example. In that it is all hand labor. They can produce on 1 acre what we can produce on 2. It is cheap labor, from 15 to 20 cents a day. That is what they are getting.

If you can tell me how you can produce our commodities and sell to those people abroad under such labor conditions, I would like you to do so.

Mr. VARNEY. I remember when I was out at Purdue University one of the professors brought up an example of that one time. The statement he made was that a rice producer in Arkansas could grow his product, ship it to China, and undersell the Chinaman.

The CHAIRMAN. He was misinformed-he did not have the factshe had not been to China. [Applause.] I do not mean to say anything derogatory about the professor, but some of them are "green," and they may not know the facts, but I do know this, that the rice farmer of Louisiana cannot compete with the rice farmer of China, nor can he compete with the rice farmer of Formosa or Burma or Thailand. I have seen them. I have been there. I was there less than 3 months ago. I think I know what I am talking about.

Like I said, I do not want to get into a discussion about high prices or anything like that. All of this poses a serious problem. You folks are living in velvet compared to places where I have been on this trip, I mean, according to your statement. You do not have too many problems here compared with other areas covered by our hearings. You sell practically all of the milk you produce somewhere else. They cannot. They do not have any markets for it. The same thing obtains for other commodities.

Our good Government said, "Produce all you can," and we thought that this war—and thank the Lord it has not expanded as we feared it might-would continue, as soon as the war ended, of course, some of the markets were cut off. There was no use for what the farmers produced. Many witnesses believe that the farmers of the Nation responded patriotically and produced plenty and built one of the greatest agricultural factories ever known.

For the past 10 years we have been able to increase production on the same acreage 42 percent. That is where some of our trouble lies, but I am not going to argue with you. Please proceed.

I wish to say this, that you mentioned income tax. If course, that is not within the jurisdiction of this committee. We will be glad, however, to pay attention to what you say. You may proceed.

Mr. VARNEY. (7) A change in the income tax laws that would enable the farmer to average out his income over a 3- or 5-year period would be helpful because he is unduly taxed in a good year without adequate opportunity to get relief in years of crop failure, sudden disease in the herd, and so forth. For instance, if a dairy farmer had an unusually high income in one year because of an exceptionally good sale of livestock or any other reason, he should be allowed to spread that over several years and be taxed on the average.

(8) We feel the school lunch and special school milk programs should be continued.

(9) We can see no justification for the Government to continue to spend large sums to bring more land into production by irrigation and drainage projects as long as current production exceeds demand.

The CHAIRMAN. Could you suggest that we can stop these great irrigation projects in the West?

Mr. VARNEY. That is what I am suggesting.

The CHAIRMAN. We passed a law last year providing money to farmers who desired to irrigate in the South; in fact, all over the country. Would you stop that, too?

Mr. VARNEY. To be consistent with what I have just said, any Government spending actively which is going to increase production is not going to solve the present dilemma.

The CHAIRMAN. This would not increase acreage

Mr. VARNEY. But it would increase production, though.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, it would, by providing water. And you want to stop that, too?

see.

Mr. VARNEY. That is the crux of the whole matter, so far as I can

The CHAIRMAN. You would stop that, too?

Mr. VARNEY. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. VARNEY. (10) We do not believe production controls or marketing controls would be feasible for dairy producers as it would tend to keep inefficient producers in business, decrease efficiency, increase the cost of production, and, by putting arbitrary limits on opportunity, would discourage the best of our young people from staying on the farm and making agriculture their life work.

The CHAIRMAN. There is one statement that I wish you would read over for me. You said a low support price would do what?

Mr. VARNEY. Low support price will doubtlessly move people off the farms.

The CHAIRMAN. I agree with you. That is a good statement. That is exactly what it will do. That is not a healthy situation, is it? Mr. VARNEY. It all depends upon your viewpoint politically. It is not, I would say.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not talking politically. What I am trying to do here I should have said this when I came in-this committee has been holding these hearings without regard to politics, party, or what have you. Whether a loss was sustained by a Republican or a Democrat, it is a loss. Senator Aiken said last night, and I am going to tell you now, that our committee does not play politics. My hope is that before February comes we can take the law that we now have and try to improve it irrespective of politics. We hope that both Republicans and Democrats and the Independents in the Senate will also help us. That is my view.

Senator HOLLAND. Mr. Chairman, the record, of course, will not show anything about the age of this witness, although he has spoken several times of his particular interest in the young farmer and the younger group. Would you mind stating your age for the record? Mr. VARNEY. Twenty-five.

Senator HOLLAND. You spoke of the fact that you had been away from the actual farm production in recent times. Did you mean that was in the Armed Forces or at school?

Mr. VARNEY. At school.

Senator HOLLAND. One of our principal points, as I have understood it, is that you think that the young farmer along with every other efficient farmer will have a better chance under the setup which you

suggest, rather than under high price supports and large amounts of Government aid?

Mr. VARNEY. Well, in my opinion, I do not see how it would be possible to do away with the surpluses which in turn are the detrimental factor in the pricing of agricultural commodities by any form of price support. You have got to let the law of supply and demandthe simple economic law-clear the market.

Senator HOLLAND. What is the size of your operation, or did you state that in your written statement?

Mr. VARNEY. 280 acres, 35 cows at present.

Senator HOLLAND. The sum of your statement is that you feel that the young people who want to go into agriculture will not be helped by the continuance of present support price practices; is that correct? Mr. VARNEY. That is one of the points I made. I do not think any farmer will be-not just the young farmer-but any farmer.

Senator HOLLAND. The reason I press this point is that we have had so many witnesses who have taken the particular position that the established farmer can see through the difficult days which many farms are now sustaining, but that many young farmers, like yourself, without financial backing and without ownership of their property, would be particularly hurt unless we greatly expand the support program. Therefore, I wanted the record to show very clearly your age and the fact that your testimony is from the very group which you mentioned so often, that is, the group of young people who are devoted to the farm. That is correct, is it not?

Mr. VARNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been farming?

Mr. VARNEY. A year and a half.

The CHAIRMAN. What is the cost of the equipment-where did you buy your land and when did you buy your land?

Mr. VARNEY. It was April, 1954.

The CHAIRMAN. You bought it yourself with your own funds?
Mr. VARNEY. No; I bought it with the help of my father.

The CHAIRMAN. How much equipment does it require for you to

operate your farm?

Mr. VARNEY. In dollars and cents?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. VARNEY. At present I probably have $2,500 invested in equipment.

It could be a lot more.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you buy that yourself?

Mr. VARNEY. Yes, most all of it.

The CHAIRMAN. Without any assistance from your father?

Mr. VARNEY. No.

The CHAIRMAN. You were assisted by him?

Mr. VARNEY. No, I was not assisted by him in buying the equipment. The CHAIRMAN. You think you could have bought the farm you have except for the assistance of your father?

Mr. VARNEY. No.

The CHAIRMAN. You could not?

Mr. VARNEY. No.

The CHAIRMAN. There are many farmers in the West, we find, that cannot go to a father as you have, do you see, and the operations in those areas is such that you spend thousands of dollars, in some places we found that it costs as much as $50,000 to start a farm off with the

combines and tractors, to operate a family unit farm. Conditions in the West where we came from are different from those here. There is no comparison. I tell you that. There they do not have a sale for all they produce. You have. They have got to struggle to sell what they produce. There is such an abundance of it. Many of the farms in those areas responded to their Government in order to expand and it is because of that that you have the situation with respect to a lot of the wheat, a lot of the tobacco, and a lot of the corn, and what have you. I find that the situation in Vermont is far different from what you find almost any place in the country. Yours is done through dairying almost solely and you are very fortunate in having a lot of people you can sell it to in Boston and the big areas here. You are pretty well protected with Government law. Do you get the idea? I thought that I would put that in the record.

Mr. VARNEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, sir. Anything else? If not, thank

you.

Mr. VARNEY. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Ferrin Edmunds. Now, Mr. Edmunds, will you be seated, please? I understand that Mr. Frank Hussey, Mr. McIntire, Mr. Peabody, and several others are joining you in these statements. Is there anybody else?

STATEMENT OF FERRIN EDMUNDS, PRESIDENT, POTATO INDUSTRY COUNCIL OF MAINE, FORT FAIRFIELD, MAINE

Mr. EDMUNDS. Mr. Chairman in the interest of conserving time, they have asked me to read our statement into the record. And those gentlemen, with the exception of Mr. Peabody, will be available for questioning at your request.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any others than those I have mentioned? Mr. EDMUNDS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You have six, with yourself?

Mr. EDMUNDS. Five, including myself. Mr. Peabody is not here. The CHAIRMAN. That is what I mean, that you speak for Mr. Peabody, too?

Mr. EDMUNDS. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. He is not present?

Mr. EDMUNDS. No.

The CHAIRMAN. The statement you have before you there incorporates his views?

Mr. EDMUNDS. That is right, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may proceed, sir. Give us your name in full and your occupation.

Mr. EDMUNDS. My name is Ferrin Edmunds. I am a farmer in Fort Fairfield, Maine, and I am president of the Potato Industry Council of Maine.

Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, the Potato Industry Council of Maine wishes to thank you for making it possible for us to appear here today. We hope your sonsideration of what we propose will be reflected in a measure of security, both for us as producers as well as in increased prosperity for the general economy of our country. The Potato Industry Council of Maine is a trade organization financed and supported by the more than 4,000 commercial potato

producers within our State. We appear today as elected delegates of the council and we have taken great pains to positively ascertain what our members want and need in the way of legislation for their protection as potato producers.

We recognize that a divided feeling exists across the Nation as to how far the potato industry should go in submitting itself to any type of program. Over the past several weeks you have undoubtedly heard many varying testimonies as to what would be best for our industry. The type of potato program embodied in our testimony is designed to protect the interests of the efficient family-sized farmer. It has the solid support of 95 percent of the producers in Maine where the average unit of potatoes is about 30 acres per farmer. If the family-sized unit is to continue as the backbone of American agriculture, the problems of the small producer must be given commensurate consideration with those of the larger operator. We know this committee will give him an equal amount of consideration.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you describe a small producer for us in the Maine area-do you have that in your statement?

Mr. EDMUNDS. No, I do not have that.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you tell us what is a small producer-how many acres, the investment involved, and what is the problem of production?

Mr. EDMUNDS. A small producer in the State of Maine would probably own a farm that had about 75 to 100 acres of potato ground and, conservatively, under good conditions, it should be worth about $15,000.

In addition to that, and I am speaking here, sir, of an averagesized producer, that is, 30 acres in the State of Maine, that is the average unit of potatoes in the State of Maine.

Senator HOLLAND. Do you mean that much planted each year? The CHAIRMAN. Out of the 75 to 100?

Mr. EDMUNDS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, about a third of his acreage is devoted to that?

Mr. EDMUNDS. I would say 25 to 33 percent.

The CHAIRMAN. Of the acreage of 75 to 100 acres which you consider a small farm unit—is that all cultivated?

Mr. EDMUNDS. That is pretty nearly all cultivated acreage. Our rotation is generally, hay, a few peas, some grain and potatoes. The CHAIRMAN. What is that done for, for the enrichment of the soil or to get into some other crop that would produce?

Mr. EDMUNDS. We are limited, as I pointed out in this statement.
The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. EDMUNDS. By diversification. We cannot do it.
The CHAIRMAN. Do you go into that in your statement?
Mr. EDMUNDS. I do, briefly.

The CHAIRMAN. What is done with the other acres besides potatoes? Mr. EDMUNDS. I touch on it in this way, that diversification does not lend itself to our problem in Maine in the potato-producing areas. The CHAIRMAN. Do you have a method of approach which you want to submit?

Mr. EDMUNDS. I believe it would be satisfactory. If not, I will be glad to answer any questions.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, we will soon find out.