Dr. WOLFF. Let me repeat once again what I have said earlier several times. The primary work of the interrogator is to convince the prisoner that what he did was a crime. That is repeating what I have said many times before.

The CHAIRMAN. That is his conception of the responsibilities and duties with which he is charged. If he fails I wonder what happens to the interrogator. If he is unsuccessful, what punishment or reprimand does he suffer? Do we have any information on that?

Dr. WOLFF. Yes, a little. I tried to find out. If he demonstrates his lack of capacity he is taken out of the work. He isn't actually punished but his chances of promotion are certainly very small and he may be given some secondary role in the police system. I don't belive that he is actually imprisoned unless he has shown some deviation in his own ideas.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, if he just doesn't have the capacity to do the job he is demoted. At least that much happens to him.

Dr. WOLFF. Yes. There is this much to say about it: If a man has falsified his evidence he is liable to be punished.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean if he makes a report that the prisoner later repudiates?

Dr. WOLFF. Or if his superiors for political reasons or otherwise decide this is no longer the way this is to be viewed, in either case he may be punished for this falsification. We had that sort of evidence about the doctors' trials. As you may remember, a certain number of doctors were accused of having taken part in the bad management of important people, and they were tried for that. Then later it was discovered that the evidence was not correct. The interrogators in those instances were punished.

Senator BENDER. Was this the experience, Doctor, of the boys who embraced communism, who were prisoners, American boys who voluntarily said they didn't want to come back to this country?

Dr. WOLFF. No, sir.

Senator BENDER. That wasn't true in that case.

Dr. WOLFF. No. They didn't have very much pressure applied, practically none of this.

Senator BENDER. None of this?

Dr. WOLFF. No.

Senator BENDER. That is a wholly different situation. Did you study that at all?

Dr. WOLFF. We have had some experience with some of those people, yes, sir.

Senator BENDER. What would you say motivated them?

Dr. WOLFF. In some instances I am afraid it was due to the fact that certain advantages were gained by cooperation and that they had the conviction, rightly or wrongly, that they would be very severely criticized, if not punished, if they returned. They thought that their chances were somewhat better if they remained with the enemy. At least some of them have felt that after making that choice the decision was a bad one and they were willing to take their chances and to come back. Our experience with them has been that they are not exposed to a great deal of pressure.

Senator BENDER. Where our citizens are involved as prisoners and are brainwashed and given this treatment what has been the Government's attitude when confessions were obtained? Is the Government inclined to be lenient and consider the ordeal and experience that they have had?

Dr. WOLFF. Yes. I am out of my area of competence. It is my understanding that where military people are involved, the department of the particular individual is very carefully reviewed, and where it is considered by military judges that the pressures were very great, these men have been accepted and compassionately dealt with.

On the other hand, if this was felt not to be so, I think certain punishments were meted out. I think it was in terms of the individual case and the amount of pressure applied. I don't think there is an overall policy. Am I right about that?

Dr. HINKLE. Yes, sir. I think, Senator, if we get ahead with the next part of our presentation it will become clear where the Chinese procedures are different from those of the KGB, which we have been describing, and you can also see to what extent the Korean prisonerof-war experience flowed out of the Chinese experience.

Dr. WOLFF. May I have the next chart?

The CHAIRMAN. Chart No. 11 will be made exhibit No. 11 and will appear in the record at this point.

(Exhibit No. 11 follows:)

EXHIBIT No. 11

COMPARISON OF METHODS OF CHINESE WITH METHODS OF KGB

1. KGB goal is to produce a satisfactory protocol in preparation for trial. Additional Chinese goal is to produce long lasting changes in the basic attitudes and behavior of the prisoner.

2. Prolonged isolation not used routinely.

3. Intensive use of group interaction-greater dependence on disorganizing effect of group rejection and hostility. Complete lack of privacy.

(a) To obtain information.

(b) To apply pressure; to persuade.

(c) To indoctrinate.

4. Use of public self-criticism and group criticism for indoctrination of nonparty persons.

5. Use of diary writing, repeatedly rewritten and rejected autobiography, and rote learning as means of interrogation and indoctrination.

6. Detention greatly prolonged after initial interrogation-indoctrination may continue years before trial, with exposure to nothing but Communist interpretation of history and current events.

Dr. WOLFF. If you will accept what I have said as background of what has been developed in the Asiatic Communist society, I will emphasize differences right from the start.

Before going in detail I think we might say just how they contrast. The KGB stands in general for the Eastern European Communist methods. You will see that the goal in the KGB has been to produce a satisfactory protocol in preparation for trial.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, a confession.

Dr. WOLFF. Yes, sir. Excuse me.

The CHAIRMAN. When you say, "to produce a satisfactory protocol," you mean, in our terminology, a "confession" from the prisoner?

Dr. WOLFF. Yes, sir.

You will remember that the indoctrination procedures or the attempt to reform was not a major point, and it was assumed that in the ultimate disposition in Siberia in the salt mine or in factory or whatnot, the individual's continued education would be a part of his future life. The additional Chinese goal is to produce a long-lasting change in the basic attitude and behavior of the prisoner. So the timetable, as you will see, is very different. They are not only interested in getting a satisfactory protocol but they want to produce a different attitude or a different ideological system. You might speculate as to why that is, but apparently they feel that they have used this as a means of diffusing education in the Communist value system when they let these people go. The Russian society doesn't seem to be dependent on that since it feels it has a better contact with these discharged people and will treat them as they show evidence of defection.

At any rate, the second major difference is that prolonged isolation such as I described is not used routinely. It may be used in some instances, but not as routinely as it is in the Eastern European system..

Strikingly different is the intensive use of group interaction. I will describe that in detail. There is a greater dependence on disorganizing effect of group rejection and hostility in detention. There is a complete lack of privacy in contrast to the extreme privacy of isolation. These means are used to obtain information, to apply pressure to persuade and to indoctrinate.

The variations are the use of public self-criticism and group criticism for indoctrination and the use of diary writing. There is much more pencil and paper work in the East. Repeatedly rewritten and rejected autobiographic statements, and the rote learning as means of interrogation and indoctrination.

The CHAIRMAN. What is that rote learning?

Dr. WOLFF. As I will point out later, they get up to 56 hours of lectures or talks a week when they are in detention, and they have to be able to repeat almost as one would in the primary or elementary schools some of the lessons that are being delivered.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose they fail or refuse or are not very proficient in learning, what happens to them?

Dr. WOLFF. As you will see, the interrogator or the teacher spending, as he will, up to 56 hours of his time in teaching, will then turn the prisoner back to his cell. You will find there are 6 or 7 or 8 people in the cell. If he comes back with evidence that he has done poorly or has been uncooperative in relation to his classwork, then the group really gets a workout. The pressure that they bring down is really enormous. I will elaborate on that.

The detention may be greatly prolonged after the initial interrogation. The indoctrination may continue for four or more years, before trial, during which time the individual is exposed to nothing but Communist interpretation of history and current events. With that superficial appraisal of the differences, let's go into a little more detail.

The CHAIRMAN. The chart now being presented will be marked exhibit No. 12 and will be printed at this point in the record.

(Exhibit No. 12 follows:)

Dr. WOLFF. Again you have before you a timetable, the weeks on the left, the steps involved in the middle, and the reaction of the pris oner, this time in terms of the Chinese Communist secret police sys tem. Again we go through a period or 3 or 4 weeks of surveillance and preparation for arrest, with certain local peculiarities which we need not dwell upon. They have about the same effect upon the prisoner. Making him increasingly aware of his impending arrest and uncertainty as to his future.

In contrast to the Russian system, the seizure is done under rather dramatic circumstances. Instead of the middle of the night, on the train or on the street, or a knock on the door, a truck may approach, often in daylight, again at night, armed troops may jump down and a

great to-do is exhibited about the arrest of the individual. Dramatic or stagy circumstances in contrast to the other type of secretive cir

cumstance.

He is immediately taken before three judges, who are also interrogators. Whatever immediate information he is prepared to give he will give.

A new feature is the so-called house arrest. This may be the outgrowth of a lack of facilities. At any rate, the individual may be kept in his own dwelling for weeks, in one room or part of the house, under guard. Ultimately he is taken to a detention house. Again, un-· like the Russian system, the detention house may be part of a prison or not. I might say again and again that when we are talking about things Chinese we have a much less organized and stabilized and refined system. It is much more fluid, it is much more in the process of making, far less experienced, much more accident, much more clumsiness, many more fortuitous circumstances.

Through this period of house arrest the individual again is exposed to a certain amount of indoctrination. When he gets to the detention house, in fact, or the detention prison, again his property is taken. away from him and carefully kept for him.

Incidentally, some of our informers, prison informants, Americans who came back after 412 years, received their garments in excellent condition and in good, clean state. Everything was returned.

It is uncertain as to whether he will be put into a period of isolation. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. He is certainly going to go through a period of interrogation from this point on. In many instances, in a few instances in the case of some of our important military personnel, they have been completely isolated, not unlike the Russian system.

The group cell I think should be very carefully kept in mind. This is a group of 6 or 8 people with a leader. They are all prisoners, political prisoners. The leader and the group are intensely competitive in bringing to bear upon the newcomer the evidences of his defections and inadequacies. They are all doing their best to get out of this situation. They bring every pressure that a hostile group can bring upon a newcomer to comply, to accept, to confess, and to express approved opinions.

The individual has no privacy. He has a little bundle of garments and a toothbrush which he puts under a kind of table on which all the individuals sleep. He is exposed from morning until night to the views and impressions and opinions of this ostensibly hostile group.

Sometimes there are individuals in this group who are very eager, as I put it, to help the individual to come to a new point of view, which certainly makes it difficult for the newcomer to resist. The pressure here is the pressure of an individual exposed to a small group of persons with whom he must live for 24 hours a day for weeks or months or years and with which he must make some sort of working arrangement to have a little self esteem and peace of mind.

Again physical violence is not approved officially, and if a jailer or an interrogator happens to strike a man it is not condoned except where it is not known. Occasionally the less well prepared and less