Mr. BRANNAN. I glanced at it, yes.

Mr. NELLIS. Do you recognize how many are Roche products there?
Mr. BRANNAN. I recognize obviously Valium and Dalmane.
Mr. NELLIS. Will you speak up.

Mr. BRANNAN. Valium and Dalmane.

Mr. NELLIS. When these ads appeared in medical journals, were you given any special instructions by the company regarding sales methods or sales techniques?

Mr. BRANNAN. The company as a whole totally worked together so that any sales papers or brochures I would have would be in conjunction with advertising.

Mr. NELLIS. Please explain what you mean by "in conjunction with." Would you have special sales efforts or special sales goals attached to advertising campaigns?

Mr. BRANNAN. Right. For a long time we had versatility of Valium and all the ads like this would show its use as a muscle relaxant.

Mr. NELLIS. And what would you say to the doctor about its versatility when these ads appeared?

Mr. BRANNAN. You could even pick up a jounal on his desk and open it up and start talking from there about the versatility of it.

Mr. NELLIS. Give me an example of the kind of versatility you described.

Mr. BRANNAN. You could open to the package insert and talk about anxiety-depressive states or psychoneurotic states. You could talk about muscle relaxant states. You could talk about Valium for bedtime sedation. And you'd go through the whole package insert, and many times say, "Doctor, have you ever considered it for this?" You phrase words to soften it. You don't say "Doctor, do you use it here?" but say, "Have you ever considered it here?" or, "Do you have any patients that might fit this indication?"

Mr. NELLIS. When an ad appearing showing an elderly lady or a group of elderly ladies exhibiting anxiety, would you then particularize your sales pitch toward that group? If you had a doctor that had a number of geriatric

Mr. BRANNAN. If he has a large geriatric population you'd sell more to his geriatrics.

Mr. NELLIS. Assume I am the doctor and you are the detailman. Tell me what you'd say to me about prescribing for my geriatric patients. Mr. BRANNAN. OK. If he is already using it a negative can be a positive when your're selling.

Mr. NELLIS. What does that mean?

Mr. BRANNAN. Going back to side effects, you could talk about the side effects in the geriatric patient.

Mr. NELLIS. That wouldn't sell Valium, would it? I mean if I were prescribing for a large group of geriatric patients and you told me the side effects, that would be negative information.

Mr. BRANNAN. But it makes it positive in that he feels you are on his side, which in my case I was, and I wanted to be sure when he prescribed it he presented it the right way.

Mr. NELLIS. Would that increase the sales to the doctor by telling him the side effects?

Mr. BRANNAN. It would increase it because your believability would increase with the doctor.

Mr. NELLIS. In other words, your credibility was involved.

Mr. BRANNAN. Right.

Mr. NELLIS. What else would you tell me if I were prescribing for geriatric patients?

Mr. BRANNAN. If you were in California it was on Medi-Cal at one time for a year, and then it was off Medi-Cal. If you had nursing home patients when it was on Medi-Cal, they could get it free.

And again, to answer one of the other questions, I would compare it to the competition which is on this DDD form, Mellaril, "Doctor, are you aware that Valium is on Medi-Cal now? Your patients can get Valium instead of Mellaril and get less sedation and less side effects, which is against competition which is Mellaril, and your sales would go up.

But when it went off the doctor would say, "My patients can't get Valium anymore and they responded better to it." Then you get into whether the nursing homes want these patients around or want to zonk them.

Mr. NELLIS. What has been your experience that the nursing homes want to do?

Mr. BRANNAN. They want to zonk them.

Mr. NELLIS. Has that generally been your experience?

Mr. BRANNAN. They're less of a headache.

Mr. NELLIS. Has any doctor ever said to you, "I like this product because it tends to stabilize my patients; it tends to keep them from being anxious or stressful"?

Mr. BRANNAN. That's why they use it.

Mr. NELLIS. And that's why they prescribe a great deal of it for geriatrics, isn't that right?

Mr. BRANNAN. That is right, so their mind is a little clearer. They remember what day it is.

Mr. NELLIS. This sales pitch you gave-was it something given to you by the company or something you dreamed up in order to increase your sales quota?

Mr. BRANNAN. Well, if you are a salesman for the company you would know how to use it.

Mr. NELLIS. How do you find out? Do you have sales meetings in which this type of salesmanship is described?

Mr. BRANNAN. That is right, and you watch other salesmen sell and use different techniques, and you learn from them.

Mr. NELLIS. How often would you have sales meetings with your supervisors?

Mr. BRANNAN. You could have small division meetings once a month if you wanted to.

Mr. NELLIS. I'm talking about your experience. In your experience how often did you have sales meetings at which sales pitches were discussed?

Mr. BRANNAN. You'd have division meetings about three or four times a year, regional meetings once or twice a year.

Mr. NELLIS. And at these meetings were these sales pitches discussed?

Mr. BRANNAN. You'd talk about techniques and tactics.

Mr. NELLIS. And were they demonstrated?

Mr. BRANNAN. Demonstrated.

Mr. NELLIS. And the successful salesman would be put up as a sort of guide to the rest of you?

Mr. BRANNAN. Right, because you could go to DDD and go down and say, "This guy is obviously successful because he's got 65 percent and nationally we've only got 51 percent. What is he doing that's right?"

And you have him stand up and say, "What are you doing?" And maybe the guy will come up with an idea like this that other people hadn't thought of.

The use of one statement in a brochure or whatever-we all worked together because we had division goals on top of that.

Mr. NELLIS. In other words, these advertisements and your sales efforts were tied to your division and individual goals.

Mr. BRANNAN. That is correct.

Mr. NELLIS. Am I correct in saying that?

Mr. BRANNAN. Yes.

Mr. NELLIS. In order to meet or surpass those goals you were trained to use sales techniques of the kind you have described in conjunction with the company's advertising?

Mr. BRANNAN. That is correct.

Mr. NELLIS. That is correct?

Mr. BRANNAN. Yes.

Mr. NELLIS. What other advertising besides these advertisements to doctors and medical journals did the company engage in during the time you were there?

Mr. BRANNAN. I was

Mr. NELLIS. Did they do direct mail, for example?

Mr. BRANNAN. Yes; very heavy mailing. Roche is known for heavy mailing.

Mr. NELLIS. To whom do they mail?

Mr. BRANNAN. To everybody, pharmacies and doctors.

Mr. NELLIS. Physicians. Who else? Hospitals?

Mr. BRANNAN. Hospitals. You can find advertising anywhere, JAMA or Medical World News.

Mr. NELLIS. I'm not talking about JAMA but direct mail.
Mr. BRANNAN. Direct mail goes to physicians primarily.

Mr. NELLIS. And when this direct mail campaign would begin, would you be advised of it?

Mr. BRANNAN. We got copies of everything that was sent out.

Mr. NELLIS. And what were you told with respect to using those copies?

Mr. BRANNAN. In some cases, if you're innovative you'd use the sales material.

Mr. NELLIS. No. I'm asking what you were told, not what you yourself decided to do. Were you told, in other words, to use the direct mail material in making your sales pitch to the doctors.

Mr. BRANNAN. Yes, we could just use it.

Mr. NELLIS. In what way?

Mr. BRANNAN. If you've got a mailer that he got, it might be sitting on his desk and you'd carry it with you. And again, we'd imple

ment the plan. It might be sitting there on the doctor's desk, it might be buried under a pile of papers, and you'd pull it out and have him read it so that made it 1 of 100 that got to his desk that he actually read. And if he didn't have it you'd say, "Oh, by the way, have you seen this?" and show him yours. If you have talked Valium 6 or 7 years with your physician and you've got patients coming off the walls and you are 2 hours behind and have just delivered three babiesreal life-the guy says, "You have talked about Valium for some time. What new can you tell me about Valium? And then you come up with a creative idea in which the company trains you to answer that confrontation.

Mr. NELLIS. Have you ever had a doctor tell you he wouldn't prescribe Valium under any circumstances?

Mr. BRANNAN. Yes.

Mr. NELLIS. What did he say?

Mr. BRANNAN. He prescribed it for his daughter and she had a opisthotonus. I don't know how to pronounce it.

Mr. NELLIS. What is that?

Mr. BRANNAN. Basically your head goes back and touches the heels of your feet so that you get in a pretzel shape. And when that happened to his daughter, he wouldn't do a thing with Valium. But after 3 years he started using it.

Mr. NELLIS IS that one of the side effects, this condition you are describing?

Mr. BRANNAN. Yes.

Mr. NELLIS. Is it rare?

Mr. BRANNAN. It is rare.

Mr. NELLIS. Are there any other warnings other than using it with alcohol?

Mr. BRANNAN. You can even have photosensitivity to it. You can take it and go out in the sun and break out. It is rare but it occurs. The same with Dalmane. I had one doctor tell me about his wife. She is a gardener and went out in the sun and broke out constantly. It is in the same class.

Mr. NELLIS. You use the word "goals" but I guess we are talking about sales quotas.

Mr. BRANNAN. They are quotas but we didn't use the word. We used "goals."

Mr. NELLIS. All right, I'll use the word "goals." How were you advised about these goals?

Mr. BRANNAN. We would get DDD printouts and you'd know exactly where you stood each month, plus you'd have sales

Mr. NELLIS. Telling you where you stand each month doesn't tell you what the goal is. How were you advised what your particular goal

was?

Mr. BRANNAN. You knew what percentage increase they wanted.
Mr. NELLIS. How do you know that?

Mr. BRANNAN. Because they told you.

Mr. NELLIS. Did they ever write it to you?

Mr. BRANNAN. No, it was told at division meetings.

Mr. NELLIS. Was there a policy not to put these goals into writing? Mr. BRANNAN. That is true. Everything is oral. If you put in oral, you know, you are protected.