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Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No, I never thought of that. My main concern was getting high.

Mr. GILMAN. Were any of your friends involved in making PCP?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. None that I knew of. Some were involved in selling it, but not making it.

Mr. GILMAN. Do you think that a better education program would be of some help to warn and prevent some of the young people from getting involved in the use of PCP?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, I think it would help some, you know, if you more or less told them the effects it would have on them. But I don't know if that would really work. I think mainly it would be up to the person if they really wanted to do something. You know, you can't make anybody do anything. If they are going to smoke PCP, they are going to do it. I think the best thing would be, the thing that would happen is the person would have to go through their own experience and then if you could get them in a drug program, and try to help them there.

But more or less stopping them from doing it, I don't think there is any way you could do that. If they want to do it, they are going to do it.

Mr. GILMAN. Ms. Scrafford, with regard to your program, how long has your drug group been working on PCP clients ?

Ms. SCRAFFORD. Actually in 1969, when the program developed, I heard stories of people using horse tranquilizers, and I am sure now in retrospect they were talking about PCP.

But we really didn't come across someone who admitted using PCP until 1974. By 1975, we were seeing a number of PCP users, so many that we decided to separate it from the other synthetic drugs, so we could keep a separate count, which is how we have the statistics on hand.

What has happened, and I think this was alluded to this morning, is that heroin users that we knew in 1969 and 1970 are now heavy PCP users, and some of them are PCP dealers. What is even more frightening to me are the numbers of young children we are seeing, and I think Steve is right, this has to do with smoking, which is much easier to do, and we have seen several 10-year-olds who have been given PCP by older children in the neighborhood.

Mr. GILMAN. Do you see a need for any special type of treatment for PCP abusers, or is it similar to any other drugs?

Ms. SCRAFFORD. I don't really see any drug set-aside as needing special treatment, other than perhaps those drugs from which you become physically addicted and would need to be detoxified first.

I see the drug abuser, and this is borne out pretty much in all of the studies we have had, will use whatever drug is most easily available. In the early 1960's, it was LSD. Later on it was heroin. We had kids pretty much like Steve using heroin. Now it is PCP. I think the drug changes, but not the type of persons using the drug.

Mr. GILMAN. While PCP is not addictive, I assume there is some sort of dependency that develops, is that correct?

Ms. SCRAFFORD. We have felt, the staff has agreed pretty much that there seems to be a compulsion to use it. I am not certain that any physical dependency has ever been proven. But over the long-run, if someone uses it regularly, the only intervention seems to be to cut them off completely from being able to get it, such as in residential treatment. They do not seem to be able to stop using it on their own.

Mr. GILMAN. Cutting them off from the supply, is there any physical effects from being cut off ?

Ms. SCRAFFORD. Not in terms of withdrawal. The physical effects that we see for someone who has been a chronic drug user of PCP is a rather zombie-like state, in which reaction is very slow, what we would call being somewhat flaky. This seems to take anywhere from 3 to 6 months, but we have seen total recovery from this. I haven't seen any, one who has not recovered. But it seems to take 3 to 6 months of total abstinence.

Mr. GILMAN. What do you see as the greatest need by way of a Federal program in this area?

Ms. SCRAFFORD. I think our greatest need is still to develop more drug treatment programs, not focusing on a single drug. I think drug use is pervasive, historically it always has been. I think we will always have it here, but that we have to find more innovative ways of working with drug abusers and their families. I don't separate families from the problem. When one person is involved, I think it affects the entire family.

My background is in public health nursing, and years ago when I first started out as a young public health nurse, the scourge of public health at the time was TB. I was living in Arizona, and in spite of all of the things we knew to prevent TB, that didn't seem to help nearly as much as when we found a way to really arrest it, so we would not have that many infected people going around.

I feel this way about drug abuse. The more we can find of ways of treating drug abuse, the less contagious it will be; I do think it is contagious.

Mr. GILMAN. Chief counsel, Mr. Nellis.

Mr. NELLIS. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Steve, think back to the time when you got your first cigarette with PCP in it. Where did you get this cigarette? Was it at school?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Well, I didn't get it in a cigarette. I got it more or less a joint rolled up, and I got it from a friend back in the woods, and I had heard about it before then, but he just said “Do you want a smoke?" and I had to kind of talk him into it, because it is expensive, and he didn't want to turn me on, but I talked him into doing it.

Mr. NELLIS. He didn't charge you for it?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No, he didn't.

Mr. NELLIS. Did you pay for it subsequently, after that, did you start paying for it?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, I did.

Mr. NELLIS. What did you pay, or what did you get for what you paid?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. As I was telling the chairman before, you would get some parsley flakes, it would be like a finger across the bag.

Mr. NELLIS. What did you pay for that finger?
Mr. STEVE. RUGENSTEIN. $25.
Mr. NELLIS. Where did you get the money?

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Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. From iny paper route.
Mr. NELLIS. You had your own paper route?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. NELLIs. You used that money for this purpose ?
Mr. STEVE. RUGENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. Nellis. Was this the case throughout the time you were using PCP?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, in some cases. Otherwise, yes, it did. Mr. NELLIS. Were you lifting money from your mother's purse or

your father?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, even more than that, I went to a neighbor's house and tried to steal.

Mr. NELLIS. How often did you buy PCP?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. I only bought it myself two or three times.
Mr. NELLIS. The rest of the times you were given it?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes; it wasn't given-yes, I was given it,
turned on to it.

Mr. Nellis. You sort of talked yourself in getting some ?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. NELLIS. Was it always from the same person?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No.
Mr. NELLIS. Various persons supplied it to you?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. NELLIS. Were they all schoolmates?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. They were mainly schoolmates, yes.

Mr. NELLIS. Did you ever have any discussions with them as to where they got it? I don't want any names now.

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No.
Mr. Nellis. I am not trying to pry into the names.

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No; I was just trying to think back. I think once I talked to a friend about, you know, like where he got it, because I wanted to buy some.

Mr. NELLIS. What did he say?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. He said he had gotten it from another person. I am not sure if he said he made it or he bought it. But I know the people that were involved in it had tried to make other drugs.

Mr. NELLIS. Tried to make drugs?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. NELLIS. So some of these people you are talking about might have been in the business of making it?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. NELLIS. Kids your age?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. NELLIS. 15, 16 or 17 ?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, at the time they were 17.
Mr. NELLIS. Was that a fairly common thing where you grew up?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. More or less, yes. It wasn't at the time, I am sure it is now, because it has just regressed more.

Mr. NELLIS. Let me ask you this, Steve: You have described some of the physical effects of PCP, and I took some notes on what you said. You felt numb, you lost your senses, you felt like you were floating. Was that a pleasurable sensation?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Well, at the time when I first tried it, it was scary, but afterwards it was pleasurable.

Mr. NELLIS. The first time you were frightened by it?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. NELLIS. But after that you felt pleasure in doing it?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. NELLIS. You wanted to repeat it because it was a pleasurable experience, is that correct?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes; also because of the other family problems I was having, a lot of pressure.

Mr. NELLIS. You were having a lot of personal problems at the time and this gave you a sense of relief, a feeling of numbness?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. NELLIS. Now, when you made these purchases or were given PCP thereafter, did you notice any change in your body reaction? Did you find any evidence of psychosis or paranoia, or the feeling that you were going to do something unusual?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, that is when I started, I had never thought of breaking into houses, but I was hard up for money and I started seriously thinking about doing it. I am not sure if it was the effect of the PCP or I didn't have the

money. Mr. NELLIS. It made you feel brave and made you think you were able to cope with going out and stealing?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, it made me want to turn to it.
Mr. NELLIS. Did it make you want to get up on a building?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No, I never thought about that. I had thought about that.

Mr. NELLIS. You never thought about flying?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No; I had thought about flying many times before, I don't know if it was because of PCP or not, but I always had this fantasy of wanting to be able to fly by myself.

Mr. NELLIS. The reason I am asking you these questions, these things I am talking about have been mentioned to us as a result of ingesting PCP. And I wondered what your experience was.

Let me move on from there for a moment. How long were you on PCP?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. 2 to 3 months.
Mr. NELLIS. After that, did you go directly into Crossroads?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. NELLIS. Or was there a period-

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No, there wasn't. I think that is the reason I really didn't get into it all that much, because right after, more or less, I had been into PCP, I was brought to court and then sent to the drug program.

Mr. NELLIS. So there was no hiatus between the time you stopped smoking and the time you got counseling?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No; I stopped smoking because I was put in the drug program,

Mr. NELLIS. Now let me ask you this question : Did you feel any ill effects of any kind after you stopped? Did you have any bad feelings or bad trips, or retrogression back to the time when you were taking this drug, after you had stopped?

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Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No; I didn't have any of those experiences. I know of people that have had those experiences, but personally I haven't.

Mr. NELLIS. Were you examined by a physician after you stopped smoking?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No.

Mr. NELLIS. Were you not examined by a physician when you went into the program?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, I was.
Mr. NELLIS. I think you are being reminded.

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, I was examined by a doctor after I had been in the program a month.

Mr. NELLIS. What did he find out about your physical well-being at that time?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. He didn't say anything to me if there was anything wrong

Mr. NELLIS. Mr. Rugenstein, do you know?

Mr. EDWARD RUGENSTEIN. No, I don't know, because I guess you would have to ask someone from the program, or the staff.

Mr. NELLIS. Ms. Scrafford ?
Ms. SCRAFFORD. No, there were no physical aftereffects.

Mr. NELLIS. I notice several times as you were testifying, Steve, you said “if it was PCP I was taking.” Is there some doubt in your mind ?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. NELLIS. What did you think it was?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Well, there is, like I was saying before, it is not so much the drug, it is just the people who are doing it, you know, that is the problem. The drug program is the best solution. In the parsley flake smoking form of doing it, I have known some people that have told me that they knew people that had sprayed Raid, bug spray, on the parsley.

Mr. NELLIS. Raid?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, and also they do that and also they put skyrocket fuel on it.

Mr. NELLIS. If you were smoking Raid you would know it; because it has the most obnoxious odor, wouldn't you know it?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, I am not sure if I smoked it, I don't know.

Mr. NELLIS. What I am trying to probe is what it is in your mind that makes you doubtful that you were dealing with PCP?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. It is because of what I was told.
Mr. NELLIS. By others?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, by others.
Mr. NELLIS. But in your own mind, how do you feel about it?
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. I felt it was PCP.
Mr. NELLIS. That you were taking PCP!
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. NELLIS. There was no chemical analysis made after you went into the program by this doctor, is that correct?

Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. No chemical analysis?
Mr. NELLIS. Blood samples.
Mr. STEVE RUGENSTEIN. Yes, blood samples.

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