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European engineers are engaged in activities devoted to an expansion of civilian economy, and relatively few diverted into military or space activities.

You could draw two implications from that: first, that pessimistically the Soviet Union is beating us in a very important area of human activity, both military and civilian; secondly, that the European people are not pulling their weight in terms of their military preparation; third, that because they are not they are getting ahead of us commercially and in terms of the utilization of their engineering manpower for the benefits of their own civilization.

Mr. FREY. Your previous comments on that were very much to the point when you have recognized that the Europeans in certain civilian areas were moving ahead rather rapidly. This is one of my main points concerning the manpower problem. If engineers and scientists are the catalytic agents that produce economic progress, that maintain the level of economy of a particular country, vis-a-vis the world economy-how can we risk a continued limited supply of engineers and scientists simply on the speculation that we will not be able to cope with possible problems in the short-range future. I think we are in trouble if we allow this to happen.

I again would not disagree that employment problems may be serious in the short-range future if defense and space spending falls off and no effort is made to absorb the surplus in the civilian economy.

Senator CLARK. You speak about the projection of baccalaureate engineering degrees and then later with respect to advanced degrees; you then deal further on with the demand.

Your conclusion is that this is a pretty serious situation, and that it is not in the national interest to have this condition continue?

Mr. FREY. Yes, sir; but with one qualification. My conclusion is also based on the assumption that we will deal realistically and creatively with the utilization problem. We cannot simply say we need manpower because the economy is going up without giving serious concern to the immediate employment implications for the individuals involved in this situation. I would not want to be in the position of saying that we need larger numbers of engineers and scientists without also saying that we need new and more creative approaches to our use of them and that we cannot allow the fluctuations in demand I mentioned earlier to continue indefinitely.

Senator CLARK. How are you going to prevent it?

Mr. FREY. I wish I had the answer. I simply do not know. Hopefully, recognition of the problem would be the first step.

Senator CLARK. Would you have anything as to what the Federal Government should do, if anything, in this area and, more specifically, whether there is any legislative proposal you advocate for consideration by this subcommittee?

Mr. FREY. I think Dr. Hollomon began to touch on what we should be doing, and I believe he hesitates to get into this area; it is a sticky

one

Senator CLARK. We didn't get very deeply into it, probably for the same reasons. We do not know.

Mr. FREY. That is true.

Senator CLARK. I think we could be safe in saying that within the limits of what Congress may be willing to do, we can push hard for encouraging the increased capacity of engineering schools to give both

baccalaureate and advanced degrees and to provide financial assistance to students either on a fellowship basis or in loans or scholarships at the baccalaureate level to go into this career.

We cannot go very wrong if we go substantially further than we have gone so far in that regard.

Mr. FREY. This is a very necessary step; one that is accepted and recognized. But you cannot take this step without also considering the step which follows engineering education-an economy able to utilize these men effectively. Without insuring proper opportunities, we will be reinforcing the unfortunate supply-demand cycle in which we have been since World War II.

Senator CLARK. Well, I agree, but in what? You say the first step is to understand the problem; clearly it is. We ought to be fumbling for the next step. What is in, short of a complete solution, which none of us have.

Mr. FREY. This probably also is a rather obvious suggestion, but I do not think we know enough about how our engineers are used. I do not think we have the kinds of studies that lead us from the defense oriented utilization of engineers to the possibilities of using these highly trained men and women in the interest of the civilian economy. Senator CLARK. Well, this gets us into your very interesting discussion of obsolescence, which is part of the same problem.

Mr. FREY. Yes, sir, I think it is certainly vitally involved.

Senator CLARK. And frankly I do not know any way of getting at it other than the measures which you suggest, all of which I think are helpful, none of which are going to solve the problem.

Mr. FREY. No.

Senator CLARK. Now we come to engineering and manpower and the military. I concur with your suggestion that we ought to reexamine the manner in which engineers and scientists can best serve their country in times of national emergency, looking toward probable amendment of the draft procedures, and your suggestion that registrants be required to serve for a period of 72 months. All these things the committee will take carefully into consideration.

I wonder if you would agree that if we could find some way in a somewhat better world than we live in of drastically decreasing the military effort, we would surely increase the contribution which the engineering profession could make to civilization?

Mr. FREY. I am afraid I did not understand your question properly. Senator CLARK. If we could drastically decrease the military program, and with it the needs for engineering competence, and divert that potential skill into the further development of the civilian economy, would we not make a very substantial contribution to the advancement of American civilization?

Mr. FREY. Absolutely. This is the heart of the dilemma that we have in the manpower field. We have to do both things.

As I tried to point out here, I think the future of the country will in large measure be determined by our ability to find creative new approaches to the manpower problem.

Senator CLARK. Thank you very much, sir. Your testimony has been most helpful to us.

The subcommittee will stand in recess until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:30 p.m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Thursday, November 14, 1963.)

NATION'S MANPOWER REVOLUTION

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 14, 1963

U.S. SENATE,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON EMPLOYMENT AND MANPOWER

OF THE COMMITTEE ON LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE,

Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met at 10 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room 4232, New Senate Office Building, Senator Joseph S. Clark (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Senators Clark, Randolph, and Kennedy.

Committee staff members present: Stewart E. McClure, chief clerk, Edward D. Friedman, counsel of the subcommittee; and John Stringer, minority associate counsel.

Senator CLARK. The subcommittee will resume its session.

Our first witness this morning is Dr. Leland Haworth, Director of the National Science Foundation.

Dr. Haworth, I appreciate very much your taking the time to come up here. I have had the opportunity to read your excellent paper. I would suggest, if it is agreeable to you, that we put it in the record in full, and I will ask you a few questions to develop some of the matters you tell us about."

(The prepared statement of Dr. Haworth follows:)

PREPARED STATEMENT OF DR. LELAND J. HAWORTH, DIRECTOR, NATIONAL SCIENCE

FOUNDATION

Mr. Chairman, I am grateful to you for providing me an opportunity to appear before this subcommittee to discuss the "scientific and technical manpower needs of the Nation." You will recall that you suggested in your letter inviting me to testify that particular attention might be given to (1) an inventory of scientific and technical manpower resources of the country; (2) projections of future scientific and technical manpower needs; (3) existing and likely shortages of such manpower in general and in colleges and universities in particular; and (4) programs underway and needed to meet needs and eliminate shortages. The National Science Foundation is of course vitally interested in these topics and I am pleased to have an opportunity to discuss with the subcommittee some of the Foundation's study findings and programs relevant to this important subject.

INVENTORY AND DEPLOYMENT OF SCIENTIFIC AND TECHNICAL PERSONNEL

Number of scientific and technical personnel

While there are always definitional problems involved in statistical data on scientists and engineers, National Science Foundation studies as a rule count the numbers of professionals engaged in scientific and technical work in natural and social sciences, mathematics, and engineering. This is in contradistinction to counts based on academic training alone, and is believed to be a more accurate one in view of occupational mobility. For example, as many as 10 percent of the engineering college graduates do not enter the engineering profession upon gradnation, and even larger numbers leave the profession for other occupations, notably management, at some time during their careers. Professional work is

defined as the level at which college graduates and others with equivalent experience and training are expected to perform.

At

It should also be noted that these professional fields are highly dynamic. a particular point in time, the scientific and engineering work force consists of a number of individuals employed in certain specialties, with a definite level of training, and identifiable work activities. A subsequent examination of this work force would find many of these individuals dispersed to nonscience and nonengineering activities-but new entrants will have come into the work force to augment the remaining nucleus of the original group. An even greater shifting in work activities, specialties, and geographic areas will be found in this highly mobile work force. Although this mobility and other difficulties present us with serious measurement problems, we have accumulated a body of information which we believe to be reasonably reliable.

We thus can say that approximately 935,000 engineers and 500,000 physical. life, and social scientists are professionally engaged in scientific and technical work in 1963. In addition, an estimated 1 million technicians are employed in these fields, frequently as science and engineering aids. Secondary school teachers of science and mathematics, sometimes included as a part of this work force. number about 250,000 in addition. Engineers account for about 1.2 percent of the Nation's labor force, and about 0.5 percent of the population. Scientists represent even smaller percentages, of course, at 0.7 percent of the labor force and 0.3 percent of the population. (See chart 4.)

TABLE 5.-Scientists and engineers and number with doctorates by field, 1960

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