make a real contribution. In areas where help of this kind is desperately needed, it can tremendously improve a situation.

No. 3, I think that it will have a very good effect on those who volunteer and the communities from which these volunteers come, the fact that once again it is the outlet of the best that is part of American life, the willingness to help others, the willingness to make a sacrifice and make a contribution to others.

I think the fact that this is in operation, that this is a going concern is going to attract other volunteers to make a contribution in the local community where they have not in the past.

We think it will stimulate volunteer programs across the United States. We think that the 5,000, although they are not going to give the answers to all these problems, can make a very definite contribution and can help people who desperately need help and are not getting assistance at the present time.

Senator TOWER. In other words, you feel that these 5,000 Peace Corps men can help improve the quality of various efforts by local and private groups and can focus more attention and interest on their efforts in spite of the fact that these groups, such as Catholic Welfare, the YMCA, Salvation Army, and numerous others that we can name, have been in the field for many years?

Is it the implication that perhaps they have fallen down in stimulating interest and focusing attention on their own programs, and this is needed to call more attention to their programs and the worthwhileness of their programs?

Mr. KENNEDY. I do not think they have fallen down but all of those organizations, volunteer organizations generally in the country are very enthusiastic for this program, and feel that it could be helpful to them and helpful in their work and also make a real contribution where a contribution is needed. We would all be working together. We think that what this would do would be to focus attention again dramatically, to focus attention on the need for volunteer help across the country and in these other organizations. We would be working with them. We would be working with them in the locality or in the State and it would focus attention on what kind of contribution these organizations are making and we think working together on these problems can make a major difference.

Senator TOWER. It just occurred to me that with these various organizations making their own appeals that the combined effect of that would seem to make us pretty social service conscious in this country. I think that there are probably about 22 million people engaged in some sort of volunteer service, some of it very slight indeed. It would appear, too, that your discussion of the plight of 400,000 migrant workers, the fact that we have a number of illiterates, we have educational problems, the fact that the Alaskan natives are not well enough cared for in a medical way, the fact that the Indians have a plight, this would seem to be more an argument for a comprehensive scheme of welfare programs administered by the appropriate agencies than a problem to be assaulted by some 5,000 Peace Corps men.

Mr. KENNEDY. I do not think again this is the only answer. I think probably we need a good deal along the lines you have suggested. Senator TOWER. I am not suggesting it. I am just asking the ques

Mr. KENNEDY. I thought you were, Senator.

I am sure that more is needed along those lines and there is a great deal that needs to be done. There have been programs which have been suggested in the Senate and the Congress to try to help these various groups.

The education bill is going to be of great assistance. It is not going to be the 5,000 volunteers by themselves. It will be these programs together.

I think if the executive branch and the legislative branch join together in trying to find the answer to these problems, the country will be much better off.

Senator TOWER. In making this study, did you hold hearings and get opinions from all of the major welfare agencies, both public and private that are now in the field?

Mr. KENNEDY. We had a lot of conferences. We didn't hold formal hearings. We held conferences with a large, large number of the agencies.

Senator TowER. Have these agencies, both public and private-I am thinking primarily of organizations like the YMCA, the Boys Club, the Salvation Army, and the Catholic, Jewish, and Protestant efforts have they taken official positions on this measure?

Mr. KENNEDY. Yes, they have. I think we have a list of them. If you look in appendix C, you will see four pages of organizations, religious groups, American Jewish Committee, American Lutheran Committee, B'nai B'rith, Children of General Brotherhood Board, Council of Jewish Federation Welfare Fund, et cetera.

Senator TOWER. These institutions have formally endorsed the proposal?

Mr. KENNEDY. That is correct. We worked very closely with them while our study group was in operation to see what suggestions, ideas, and recommendations they might have.

We were greatly assisted and guided in what we finally came up with, what we are suggesting here, by the recommendations that the various organizations made to us. We had meetings with all these various organizations that spelled out what we intend to do in detail. We got many suggestions.

It is not unanimous, by any means. There are those opposed to it. Certainly the vast majority of organizations are in favor of it.

To be completely candid, I think the only organization really that is opposed to this at the present time is the National Association of Manufacturers, but other organizations I think are generally in favor of it.

Senator TOWER. What would be the criteria for determining how these 5,000 corpsmen were going to be used? The 5,000 people you propose are going to be spread pretty thin. What is going to be the basis for determining how they are going to be used and where?

Mr. KENNEDY. First, there will have to be a request from the locality. The locality will have to develop programs. It will have to show how these corpsmen are going to be used, who is going to supervise them at the local level, what kind of contribution they can make and a method by which the corpsmen can be phased out.

The corpsmen are not going to go in and stay for the rest of the existence of the United States. They have to come in with a program

of, first, how they are going to be utilized, but then also how they are going to be phased out and how they are going to be replaced by others so that a group of corpsmen are going to go in for a period of time. The point is to get others that will come in and replace them. Now, maybe the others are going to be people that they trained at the location if it is difficult to bring them in from outside, or perhaps they are going to have a program whereby you can have volunteers that will come in from a locality nearby.

In any case, the corpsman will just act as a catalyst to attract others. They will get the job done. They will perform a particular function but, after that, they will be replaced by other volunteers.

Senator TOWER. Do you think that one of these corpsmen with a few weeks training could go down in the second precinct of Washington, where I understand we have great difficulties, and perhaps do a better job than the seasoned social worker or Government worker who has been in the field for a number of years, especially with this climate of resentment against Government authority?

Mr. KENNEDY. I think under some circumstances, Senator, that a corpsman working in a locality could be of great help. I think Senator Javits knows in New York City they have had this kind of a program which has worked with the gangs in the city of New York and have been very effective.

Young people coming out of school and college, started 4 or 5 years ago and worked with particular gangs in particular blocks. It has been extremely effective in guidance, telling the young people how to dress when they go to apply for jobs; telling them how to increase their education; when they get into difficulty, being a figure of guidance.

As far as Washington, it is possible they could be of assistance. In my judgment, talking about Washington, what it needs is greater help from the legislative branch of the Government to provide for decent schools and decent housing and more opportunity for the individuals who are living here in the District of Columbia. I think that is the great problem.

If I had my choice in trying to find a solution for Washington, it would not be the addition of more corpsmen. It would be for the legislative branch of the Government to provide the necessary funds to run the District of Columbia properly.

Senator TOWER. In other words, in this pilot project in New York these people have been more effective than the established agencies, such as church and private agencies?

Mr. KENNEDY. There are other institutions and they work together with them. But this particular program of having people work coming out of colleges and universities and working with young people could have potential benefit. That program has been effective. That program in and of itself would not bring the answer, but that particular program has been effective working with other programs, Senator.

Senator TOWER. In this connection, in our desire to assault these problems that you have outlined-and I think no one questions the need, I think the disagreement is as to whose responsibility it is to fulfill the need-would you not suggest that perhaps increased tax forgiveness for charitable contributions to some of these voluntary

agencies so that they could have more funds with which to assault these problems on a private basis would be desirable?

Mr. KENNEDY. I don't know that I am equipped to answer that Senator.

Senator TOWER. I just thought

Mr. KENNEDY. Any charitable organization-I am fully in favor of that. Whether that is the way to approach it, I do not know.

Senator TOWER. I thought it would stimulate the giving to these organizations so that they could broaden the scope of their effective

ness.

What do you anticipate this will cost the Government over a period of, say, 3 years?

Mr. KENNEDY. I think when we have the full group in operation, their budget will be anywhere from $18 million to $21 million. But that is all set forth in the "information" book.

Senator TOWER. You would consider that to be the ceiling? There would not be any supplemental authorizations or appropriations requested?

Mr. KENNEDY. We do not plan on it, Senator.

Senator TOWER. Thank you, Mr. Attorney General.

Mr. KENNEDY. Could I just say, how we arrived at the budget is contained in this booklet, so that you can have all the facts before you and how we arrived at the figure. I do not expect that we would have to ask for more money than that.

Senator TOWER. Thank you, sir.

Senator WILLIAMS. Senator Burdick.

Senator BURDICK. Mr. Attorney General, I am very much interested in this legislation, partly because of the four Indian reservations in my State.

Some of the inquiries that have been made by my colleagues are on the specifics on the program.

I want to compliment you for breaking this down in your statement, where you detail what six corpsmen could do in the Apache country. I think the details you outlined here will apply to the North Dakota Indian Reservations.

Mr. KENNEDY. Senator, within our booklet here we have set forth specifications as to how corpsmen will operate or what the request has been, the kind of requests we have received as to how corpsmen will operate. We have done it for the urban areas, the mentally retarded, and the Indians.

I think you will find that of considerable interest to see how specifically we intend to operate this program.

Senator BURDICK. You have made a very fine statement.

Senator WILLIAMS. Senator Javits has a question, Mr. Attorney General.

Senator JAVITS. Mr. Attorney General, I am a cosponsor of this bill. I am inclined to agree that some elite corps-that is my word, I do not ask you to adopt it-is needed in this country but I have some very grave question as to whether the concept which is almost literally carried over from the Peace Corps will work domestically. I would like to ask you a few questions on that score as a way of testing it out. Bear in mind, I am a cosponsor of this bill and I cosponsored it with my eyes open and intending to be a party to the bill.

If you are going to have 5,000 corpsmen and it is going to be a success after all, that is the way you are designing it-are you not going to be absolutely inundated in terms of the market you have to meet and being literally torn to bits with 5,000 people in the face of this enormous country with its enormous needs as you have described them? Senator Tower has given some figures which I had in mind, too, as to the vast number of groups who are in this field now. For example, you spoke of the youth board workers in New York. That is true, we do have a youth corps, they do a very fine job, and the youth corps is an established statutory municipal program. This is duplicating. In many cities we have a State youth commission which has staff people. The Federal Government has many programs. There is area redevelopment, worker retraining, and the juvenile delinquency program. Congress is pushing a program now for youth employment opportunities which will include numbers of people. All these programs have the same kind of personnel.

What is the concept that throws 5,000 relatively young people into the breach here? Won't they be lost and the whole thing literally torn to bits in terms of any effort to do a job analogous to the Peace Corps?

Mr. KENNEDY. Again, I suppose, to have an analogy, it is true that 5,000 young people were thrown into the breach in the Peace Corps. Not only do they have a territory larger than the United States to cover, they have the whole world to cover, and they made a very major contribution, and they were extremely effective.

You might send 12 or 15 Corps men to a whole country, to cover a whole population, but yet they made a major difference in that country. From 5,800 it is going up to 12,000; that is a relatively small number compared to all the things that need to be done all around the world. Yet, this was a major difference. It is a small number of people, a small expenditure of money, for instance, compared to what we are spending in aid across the world; what we are doing in the field of defense. If we had analyzed that program before and raised the same question, "What can a few thousand Peace Corps men do around the globe, that would be just a drop in the bucket?" you would reach the same conclusion. You call it an elite group, with this kind of group operating and being available, as I say, 24 hours a day, working on a project continuously, not doing it because they are going to be paid $7,500 a year and they are going to go home at 5 o'clock at night. We do not have anything like this at the present time in the United States, this is something that is going to be there all the time, and working on a job and making a contribution in a particular locality for a particular group of people, to help a specific and particular situation. I do not think they are going to be lost.

Think what can be done for the Indians in Arizona or in the Far West or for the Eskimos in Alaska. They are being ignored: they are having problems at the present time. With this kind of group in there and working they can make a major difference.

That manpower, that kind of effort, is not available.

You have a group in New York City who are working in the slum areas but you would have a very difficult time getting people to go up, as Senator Burdick says, with some of the Indians in the Dakotas unless you have this kind of program. You cannot get volunteers to