Mr. RIVERS. Now out of 180 million people, or 185 million people, can't you get 150,000 men without going all over hell's half acre, to pick them not attached to units?

This to me is incredible.

Secretary MCNAMARA. Mr. Rivers, I think the answer is we believe so, and therefore, we did not propose that this authority be granted to the Department.

On the other hand, there are certain rather unique situations, of which the Air Force example is one, in which the additional authority granted by te Senate might be in the interests of the Nation.

I think in the great majority of cases we could avoid using such authority, and that is why I say that even if the Congress provides it to us we will use it very sparingly.

Mr. RIVERS. The reason I say this: I handled the Hébert committee for 4 years. And we have reams of testimony before the distinguished gentleman from Louisiana took over-and he has done a magnificent job. I hope that the spirit of all this testimony will not be violated, and that you, Mr. Secretary, will insist that these organized units be first activated-and this positively will be given you-before you go over here and disrupt all of these things that are not necessary. And I think the restraint of the Congress was commendable when these violations occurred.

All of us have done so. And I trust you won't permit that to happen unless it is imperative.

Secretary MCNAMARA. Well, I fully support your conclusions. I think the Senate feels exactly the same way. [Deleted.]

Mr. RIVERS. Because we know something about the Reserves. We have been living with them. We know a lot of them.

You would be surprised what we know about these Reserve people. And they have some good units.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Van Zandt, any questions?

Mr. VAN ZANDT. Mr. Secretary, as Mr. Rivers has mentioned, we have lived with this Reserve matter for many years. And as I go back over a period of possibly 10 years of study which resulted in the Reserve Act, I think, of 1962, we spent some time on this question of a callup of an individual or a Reserve unit. And we went into every phase of it.

I think that one thing we agreed on was that when you call up a unit you protect the morale of that unit, but when you pick out an individual of a unit then you destroy, or you begin to destroy, the morale of a unit.

Now, if we were short of Reserves, as someone has said, then I think maybe this authority would be necessary. But inasmuch as we are not short of Reserves, I can't see why we should give it to you.

Now we can be back here in a matter of 24 hours, from many sections of the United States, and if there is any emergency where you need authority to call up an individual as a member of a functioning unit, I think you will get it.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Pike, have you any questions?

Go right ahead.

Mr. PIKE. Well, I would like to, along the same line, ask a question about the same subject matter.

You are talking about the necessity of calling individuals under some circumstances.

This necessity is going to exist only because units are called up at less than full strength. Otherwise, there would not be any need to call up individuals.

Now, I don't know what your plans call for as far as what strength units you are going to call up.

But if you are going to call up units at 50 percent strength, then this is, again, going to be a tremendous problem. And I would like to know in that connection what the policy is going to be as between calling out members or picking members out of organized unitsSecretary MCNAMARA. Yes.

Mr. PIKE. Or calling prior service people.

Secretary MCNAMARA. Mr. Pike, we have a number of different kinds of situations. I will try to refer to several in answering your question.

We have the case of Army units in the Reserve and Guard which are at relatively low strength, such as 50 or 60 or 70 percent, as you have indicated.

Were those units to be called, it would be necessary to fill out their strength.

We would not under ordinary circumstances fill out their strength even if we had the authority to do so by calling individuals from other units.

Rather we would fill out their strength by the pool of reservists with remaining obligated service which we have set up, as I stated to this committee we would do last January, when I appeared before it.

One of the greatest problems that we faced last fall and one that your subcommittee emphasized and pointed to was the problem of filling out short units with personnel with the essential skills and with remaining periods of obligated service.

Last year we did not have a pool of personnel identified by name, by military occupation specialty, and by period of remaining obligated service.

This year we do.

And we would call from that pool of individuals not assigned to units in order to fill out these units.

Now the first people to be called from that pool, and as a matter of fact, we believe we have enough in the pool to fill all such requirements, would be those with only 6 months active duty service.

We have specially selected those individuals by skills for this purpose, and we believe that we could fill the Army requirements therefore in any likely situation by such individuals.

In the case of the Air Force, we have a different problem. We are expanding the number of tactical fighter squadrons by about 35 percent.

Many of the new squadrons are in the process of organization. They are not yet operational.

If we face situations that required an acceleration of their operational readiness, it might be necessary to call from the Reserve and Guard individuals small in number but highly important because of the particular occupational specialty they fill.

Conceivably, although I think even there it is unlikely we would have to call those individuals from Reserve or Guard units.

Mr. PIKE. Well, I think it is important to get this on the record at this time. Because what you have here is a resolution which specifically exempts the people who were called up last year.

Secretary MCNAMARA. Yes.

Mr. PIKE. Some of these people have served-in fact, I guess probably about half of these people have served only 18 months total service.

(Secretary McNamara nods.)

Mr. PIKE. But at the same time your resolution specifically allows you to call up other people who have served say 3 years of prior service?

Secretary MCNAMARA. Yes, that is correct.

Mr. PIKE. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Now

Mr. BECKER. Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Becker?

Mr. BECKER. Mr. Chairman, one point I would like to make here, that was just raised.

We called up 147,000 reservists or just released them. And you are talking about a possible emergency, during this interim, of having to call up these Reserves. Of what possible good will these Reserves be, being unskilled, untrained, unready, to go into some kind of action, as against Reserves you have just disbanded, after a course of 6 or months, of so-called intensive training and preparation?

You are going to call up a group, and then you are going to take them out of units and you are going to reassign to other units, where there is going to be a breakdown of morale.

Actually what is going to be accomplished in this interim, with a callup of this nature?

Secretary MCNAMARA. We have two questions here, I believe.
Mr. BECKER. That is right.

Secretary MCNAMARA. One is what is the combat readiness of Reserves, presumably units, that we might call up in this period of time that the Congress may be out of session, compared to the combat readiness of the units we just recently deactivated.

And the answer is very clear.

The units would be called up that would have a lesser degree of combat readiness than the units deactivated. I think that is perfectly apparent.

Mr. BECKER. What value are they going to be in this short period? Secretary MCNAMARA. Very great potential value, depending upon the situation we face.

I think I mentioned to this committee earlier this year that around about December 11 of last year I visited a fighter wing in France that had been called to active duty in October, had been moved to Europe in November, and was declared combat operational by the U.S. Air Force commander in Europe in mid to late November, around the 18th.

So that in a period of 5 or 6 weeks these air squadrons, in this case from Massachusetts and New York, had been called to active duty, moved to Europe, put through combat training and checked out as combat operational.

And we think we could do that again with different units.

Mr. BECKER. Well, Mr. Secretary, I hope you will read the testimony in the hearings we had as to the combat readiness of those New York air wings and the lack of equipment they had over there, and the long time they were over there before they even got it.

The CHAIRMAN. Well

Mr. BECKER. Wait, Mr. Chairman.

I just wondered this: Because there is also the question of the need. Are we, when talking about these units now, speaking of individuals who are going to break from units and then put them in with units, and then the solid units we are going to bring up, and the interim authority that the President wants between the time Congress adjourns and February 28-is this for a clear-cut military potential need. [Deleted.]

Mr. BECKER. Mr. Chairman, I have just one final question-
Mr. OSMERS. Mr. Chairman?

The CHAIRMAN. Wait a moment.

I will recognize everybody, but I cannot do it all at one time. Mr. BECKER. Just one final question, on the same subject. It has to do with the briefing we had yesterday, Mr. Secretary. I am just trying to be as fair as you are on this. [Deleted.]

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Becker.

Mr. OSMERS. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Osmers.

Mr. OSMERS. Mr. Chairman, I was at the briefing yesterday morning, too, and I think I will say that it was probably one of the most depressing mornings that I have had since I have been a Member of Congress.

I didn't learn anything about the international situation that I didn't either know or suspect.

I was depressed by the apparent lack of any real policy on our part to meet with it.

Now, it seems to me, Mr. Chairman, that the passage of a resolution such as this which would add 150,000 reservists to our forces and we have to give a written guarantee in here that we won't call the ones that we just trained-we have to guarantee that we will call some other ones

(Secretary McNamara nods.)

Mr. OSMERS. It seems to me that this hampers the President, rather than helps. Maybe it may have some public relations value, but I think it is ridiculous in a world with millions of men under arms to think that we are going to call up 150,000 reservists and somehow be able to react as might be required. [Deleted.] This is so laughable I won't discuss it before this committee.

So I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we back our President, that we support our President, and that we pass this resolution, but that we strike out the date, and that we put a period after "active duty," so that it reads

that notwithstanding any other provision of law the President may, without the consent of the persons concerned, order any unit or any member of the Ready Reserve of an armed force to active duty.

85066-62-No. 74 2

I believe that the President needs our support, and that we should give it to him, and we shouldn't tie him all up with string and ribbon and twine in doing his task.

We do face a national emergency. He has the authority under the Constitution to do it, as we know.

So I say if we are going [deleted] to support him, let's support him, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, Mr. Osmers

(Chorus of "Mr. Chairman.")

The CHAIRMAN. One minute.

In other words, Mr. Osmers, if you are going to do a job, do an outstanding job.

Mr. OSMERS. Let's do the job that is needed to help the Nation and help the President.

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Secretary

(Chorus of "Mr. Chairman.")

The CHAIRMAN. Wait a minute. I will recognize everybody.

Mr. Secretary, have you any answer you want to make at this time to the suggestion of Mr. Osmers, or would you rather make that later on after you think about it?

Secretary MCNAMARA. I would prefer to answer later.

But I would like to say this, that we see circumstances that can develop in which we would respond more promptly and with greater strength were we to have the authority requested, and that is why it is being requested..

Now, the proposal made would give us greater flexibility, and therefore I won't oppose it.

I would like to think further about it, however, and respond more fully later.

(Chorus of "Mr. Chairman.")

The CHAIRMAN. Wait a minute.

Mr. RIVERS. We will take this up later on and discuss it.

Secretary MCNAMARA. All right, sir.

Mr. RIVERS. Now, Mr. Secretary, you have ordered the Howze board to study-and I am glad that General Lemnitzer is here, because he has been more prophetic than anybody I know in uniform as to the need for more mobility in our military. And I have in mind airlift.

Now you have convened the Howze Board. I am not familiar with what they have recommended to you. I understand that their recommendation is on your desk, or presently will be. You have not seen it. I don't know what it contains.

But I understand it is designed to give more mobility to the Army. Now you need certain internal flying capacity or airlift, tactical airlift, for the Army units.

And I am sure that this report deals with the Army mobility as it affects it is affected by what the Tactical Air Command can give it. One will run into the other.

Now I imagine it has to do with helicopters and fixed wing aircraft of the varying types about which we have been briefed in our 412 hearings.

Now here is my question. While time remains, why don't we concern ourselves to these two areas-internal airlift for the Army and