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Mr. McGUIRE. It carries on various personnel and other programs in connection with these three main activities.

Mr. BURKE. The reason I ask is that I notice, in glancing through this bill, that the area is designated as the “Cradle of Forestry” and shall be administered, protected, and developed within and as a part of the Pisgah National Forest by the Secretary of Agriculture in accordance with the laws, rules, and regulations applicable to national forests in such manner as in his judgment will best provide for the purposes of this act."

Does this not mean that under the act, that is, the National Forest Act, if this bill is passed, the Secretary of Agriculture can spend money out of the general appropriations for the Forest Service ?

Mr. McGUIRE. Yes, sir; he already has that authority.

Mr. BURKE. That he could; and in the long run spend money, which would cost money, could he not?

Mr. McGUIRE. The construction of this facility will cost money, but this is not an authorization bill.

Mr. BURKE. I understand that, but your testimony is that this would not cost the taxpayers any, money, that this would be handled by donations. I cannot understand how the bill can say one thing and you can come up and say something else that is different and put into the record a statement that it would not cost anything,

Mr. TAYLOR. If I could answer, perhaps I could point out again that the Forest Service already has the authority to construct it. It has already approved the project. It is partly complete now.

This legislation does not grant any authority whatsoever.
The Chairman, I think, Mr. Poage, placed his finger on it.

Mr. BURKE. Could I interrupt? I agree with you. Section 2 does grant the authority of the Secretary of Agriculture to run this the same as any other national forest in his management, which would mean the construction of buildings and that would mean additional personnel required for maintenance and other matters. And further, it seems to me--as I say, I am new-authorize more than just the acceptance of the money. Supposing you do not get the money from

. any source, the $12 million or the $10 million, whichever is suggested—and incidentally, there is nothing in the bill that says anything about that. I think the statement here is by Mr. McGuire that it, would cost around $11 million in round figures, and sometimes round figures can go up to $30 million

Mr. Taylor. I will say to the gentleman that in my opinion section 2, is not necessary to this bill. I am not certain that it does anything. The Secretary of Agriculture already has the authority to operate the Cradle of Forestry, and he is so doing and has done so for a few years.

Mr. BURKE. All right, that is fine. But what you say is that you have no objection to that coming out. As was stated, you have no objection to the bill specifically stating that no money appropriation shall be made other than that received from donations in connection with this development.

Mr. TAYLOR. I would have objection to that.
Mr. BURKE. I thought that you would not.

Mr. TAYLOR. This legislation does not grant any additional spending authorities. The authority already exists. Whether the Department in the future shall see fit to request approval of spending for this

project, I do not know, but this bill does just what the chairman says, it cuts governmental redtape in order to make it easier to accept gifts and donations from interested citizens.

Mr. BURKE. Of course, the Secretary of Agriculture could then ask for further appropriations for this development.

Mr. TAYLOR. Yes, he can do that under existing authority.

Mr. BURKE. Not on the developing of the National Forests under the National Park Act?

Mr. TAYLOR. Under existing authority, he can and does and has. The project is already partly completed and in operation.

Mr. BURKE. I will take your word for that.

Thank you.

That is all, Mr. Chairman. No, I have one further thing.

May I also say that in the beginning part of the bill you say that the Secretary of Agriculture has the right to do this. The bill says that “the Secretary of Agriculture is hereby authorized to establish the cradle of forestry in America in the Pisgah National Park, North Carolina.” The bill says that he will be given the authority. How does he have the authority then?

Mr. TAYLOR. Let me say that the cradle, while it is in operation, does not have specific boundary lines. It is part of the Pisgah National Park which, I think, has about 170,000 acres in that one unit, and several hundred thousand acres in several other units. This designates the specific area as the cradle of forestry which will be administered slightly differently from other parts of the forest, but the one important part of the bill is that it authorizes the acceptance of donations, and there are interested people who want to make these donations and it cuts the governmental redtape so that it would be practical to receive anything that is offered that is needed.

Mr. BURKE. Thank you.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?
Are there any other questions of either of these two witnesses ?
If not, we are very much obliged to you, gentlemen.
We appreciate your attendance.
May I go off the record ?
(Discussion was had outside the record.)
The CHAIRMAN. Back on the record.
We will now go into executive session.

We are very much obliged to you gentlemen for your contribution and we appreciate your attendance.

(Whereupon, at 11:50 a.m., the committee retired into executive session, and the reporter was excused.)




Washington, D.C. The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:10 a.m., in room 1301, Longworth House Office Building, the Honorable Paul C. Jones presiding

Present: Representatives Jones, Kleppe, and Price.

Also present: Martha Hannah, subcommittee clerk; Hyde H. Murray, assistant counsel; L. T. Easley, staff consultant; and Fowler C. West, assistant staff consultant.

Mr. JONES. The subcommittee will come to order.

We are here to consider H.R. 16065 by Mr. Scherle and Mr. Kyl, directing the Secretary of Agriculture to release on behalf of the United States conditions in deeds conveying certain lands to the State of Iowa, and for other purposes. (H.R. 16065 follows:)

(H.R. 16065, 90th Cong., second sess.) A BILL To direct the Secretary of Agriculture to release on behalf of the United States

conditions in deeds conveying certain lands to the State of Iowa, and for other purposes

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That, notwithstanding the provisions of subsection (c) of section 32 of the Bankhead-Jones Farm Tenant Act, as amended (7 U.S.C. 1011(c)), the Secretary of Agriculture is authorized and directed to release on behalf of the United States with respect to lands designated pursuant to section 2 hereof, the conditions in those two deeds dated July 29, 1955, conveying lands in the counties of Monroe and Decatur in the State of Iowa to the State of Iowa acting by and through its State board of regents for the use and benefit of the agricultural experiment station of the Iowa State College of Agriculture and Mechanic Arts, now Iowa State University which require that the lands so conveyed be used for public purposes and provide for a reversion of such lands to the United States if at any time they cease to be so used.

SEC. 2. The Secretary shall release the conditions referred to in the first section of this Act only with respect to lands covered by and described in an agreement or agreements entered into between the Secretary and the university in which the university, in consideration of the release of such conditions as to such lands, agrees(1) that all the proceeds from the sale, lease, exchange, or dis

tion of such lands shall be used by the university for the acquisition of lands to be held for university purposes, or for the development or improvement of any lands so acquired ;

(2) that all the proceeds from the sale, lease, or other disposition of lands covered by any such agreement shall be maintained by the university in a separate fund and that the record of all transactions involving such funds shall be open to inspection by the Secretary of Agriculture.


Sec. 3. Upon application, all the undivided mineral interests of the United States in any parcel or tract of land released pursuant to this Act from the conditions as to such lands shall be conveyed to the State of Iowa for the use and benefit of Iowa State University or its successors in title by the Secretary of the Interior. In areas where the Secretary of the Interior determines that there is no active mineral development or leasing, and that the lands have no mineral value, the mineral interests covered by a single application shall be sold for a consideration of $1. In other areas the mineral interests shall be sold at the fair market value thereof as determined by the Secretary of the Interior after taking into consideration such appraisals as he deems necessary or appropriate.

SEC. 4. Each application made under the provisions of section 3 of this Act shall be accompanied by a nonrefundable deposit to be applied to the administrative costs as fixed by the Secretary of the Interior. If the conveyance is made, the applicant shall pay to the Secretary of the Interior the full administrative costs, less the deposit. If a conveyance is not made pursuant to an application filed under this Act, the deposit shall constitute full satisfaction of such administrative costs notwithstanding that the administrative costs exceed the deposit.

Sec. 5. The term "administrative costs” as used in this Act includes, in addition to other items, all costs which the Secretary of the Interior determines are included in a determination of (1) the mineral character of the land in question, and (2) the fair market value of the mineral interest.

SEC. 6. Amounts paid to the Secretary of the Interior under the provisions of this Act shall be paid into the Treasury of the United States as miscellaneous receipts.

Mr. Jones. The author of the bill, Mr. Scherle, is not here.
Do you prefer, Mr. Kyl, to make a statement now?
Mr. Kyl. Yes, sir.
Mr. Jones. You may proceed. 1




Mr. Kyl. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and gentlemen of the committee. Mr. Scherle is on


here. One of the things Mr. Scherle will ask the committee's permission to do, is to file a complete statement on behalf of the university setting forth the reasons why they are requesting the action which is contained in this bill. His testimony is somewhat parallel to mine but I shall try to make this completely germane so we do not waste any time.

Mr. Scherle and I have studied the request of the college of agriculture which is embodied in this bill. Both of us have beef cowherds in southern Iowa. We believe that the reasoning of the college is meaningful and logical.

The State of Iowa has approximately one-fourth of all the class I land of the United States. However, the land of southern Iowa lies outside that relatively flat area with the deep rich soil. Much of southern Iowa is grazing country. I relate this condition as prelude to stating the estimated dollar value of the land involved in this bill.

These estimates of land evaluation were determined by contact with bankers, real estate men, comparative actual land transactions, advertised real estate offerings, and by application of the huge store of information available to agricultural economists at the college.

The 410-acre tract near Lineville is estimated to have a current market value of approximately $150 per acre for an aggregate worth of $61,500. The 545-acre tract near Albia is evaluated at $200 per acre for an aggregate of $109,000.

These evaluations are higher than would be the case in many nearby tracts, because the improvements and the management by the college has enhanced the land value.

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