barred more readily because the quota had been exhausted for milling purposes. It had been exhausted and only on the wheat classified as feed wheat was the quota not exhausted. Mr. NICHOLS. How much would it be pertinent to offer proof that it could be used for human consumption? Senator THYE. It is immaterial that this wheat could be milled. That is not the question that is involved here because this wheat could only come in as a feed wheat, and, therefore, the question that you are trying to raise here now, I do not believe is the question that we need to concern ourselves with because this wheat would not have entered if it was to be classified as fit for human consumption. Mr. NICHOLS. I just wanted to know if you wanted that form of testimony. Senator THYE. Certainly this wheat that is frost damaged is a wheat that is edible. Mr. NICHOLS. That is all we wanted to say. Senator THYE. It is edible but that is not the question here. The question is that the quota was exhausted. I think it is just as clear as it can be. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. I think the customs should have ruled. In other words, that is what the counsel is trying to say. Senator THYE. I think we can say that it came in as animal feed and if it was used for any other purposes we are going to find it out and somebody is going to be held responsible for it. At this time we will adjourn for lunch and we will reconvene in this same room at 1:45 p. m. I will be here promptly and hope that everyone else will as we must finish this investigation this afternoon and then be off to Galveston. (Whereupon, at 12:45 p. m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 1:45 p. m. the same day.) AFTERNOON SESSION Senator THYE. We are all here so we may come to order. We will proceed. You may proceed with your questions. Mr. GUINANE. In connection with that memorandum addressed to "Bob", I wanted to read an excerpt from the report, of special agent, Samuel C. Smith of the Compliance and Investigation Division of the Department of Agriculture. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. I think we should have him sworn if he is going to give testimony. Mr. GUINANE. This is a report of his. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. I understand. Senator THYE. You mean this letter here was addressed to "Dear Bob" is the one you are speaking about? Mr. MOSKOVITZ. Yes. Senator THYE. That is part of the evidence from the different files? Mr. GUINANE. From the investigation. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. Counsel ought to be sworn if this is going in the record. Mr. GUINANE. Perhaps Mr. Bachmann, chief accountant, could testify. Mr. BACHMANN. I know about the report and I can identify it. Senator THYE. All right we will have Mr. Bachmann sworn. (Mr. Bachmann was sworn.) TESTIMONY OF JOHN J. BACHMANN, CHIEF, ACCOUNTING INVESTIGATION DIVISION, OFFICE OF COMPLIANCE AND INVESTIGATION, PRODUCTION AND MARKETING ADMINISTRATION, UNITED STATES DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE Senator THYE. You may proceed. Mr. GUINANE. Mr. Bachmann, you are the Chief Accountant of the Compliance and Investigation Division of the United States Department of Agriculture? Mr. BACHMANN. Yes. Mr. GUINANE. And as such, you have general supervision over this investigation? Mr. BACHMANN. I was put in charge of the field end of this investigation some months ago. Mr. GUINANE. And is Mr. Samuel C. Smith an agent of the Division of Compliance and Investigation? Mr. BACHMANN. Yes, he is an agent in our Dallas office. Mr. GUINANE. Will you refer to the report dated January 27, 1953, and read an excerpt taken from that exhibit? Mr. NICHOLS. We now have reached the question before the House, are we going to take this testimony in order to impeach this witness? I wouldn't think we should take unsworn testimony in an attempt to impeach a witness that is before you under oath. Senator THYE. We could obtain that information from Mr. Smith when we are down at Galveston. Mr. GUINANE. Yes. I am not going to try to impeach the witness. To the best of his knowledge that was addressed to Bob Henderson and I am not going to try to impeach him. I am going to ask him some questions and to show where that letter came from. Senator THYE. If the witness has stated to the best of his knowledge and understanding that this was a communication to Mr. Henderson, and it is only addressed to a Bob, then referring to this record and for the sake of trying to assist in refreshing the memory of the witness, then I can't see where we would be endeavoring to impeach the witness. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. If I may say so, the normal procedure to ask these questions and get information is to ask the witness, did you say so and so or did you do so and so. I don't know what this is about. Senator THYE. I don't know either. We have Mr. Bachmann here and not Mr. Smith, but we do have the file and records as our investigators have developed them, and we do have Mr. Bachmann here who has been sworn, and Mr. Bachmann is the man put in charge of this work by the Department of Agriculture. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. Mr. Smith made a report and Mr. Smith is a member of the Department of Agriculture. All I was saying is that if Mr. Smith is being referred to on this particular subject, and has made certain reports and certain statements, Mr. Guinane has a perfect right to ask this witness, did you say so and so, did you do so and so. That is the normal procedure, Senator. Senator THYE. What were you going to do, Mr. Guinane? Mr. GUINANE. I was going to read an exerpt from that report to show where I got this exhibit, which is this letter addressed to Bob on which I questioned him. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. Then, I think, Mr. Guinane, he wants to give testimony. It shan't take very long to comply with that desire. (Mr. Guinane is sworn.) Senator THYE. You proceed and make whatever statements and testimony you wish. There will be no further objection, gentlemen. There will be no further objection on anything that goes in with the sworn testimony and if you want any further information about that testimony, we will get it from Mr. Smith when we are in Galveston. Mr. NICHOLS. Surely, but at the same time Senator THYE. We are trying to get some information about a witness before us here and there is what our investigators have found and developed as a record and report. I think, now that we have sworn Mr. Bachmann and we have sworn Mr. Guinane, we can proceed to let them disclose what they have to say as a part of the record. You will now proceed. Mr. NICHOLS. I wonder, Senator, if you wouldn't let me make one tiny statement. Senator THYE. Indeed. TESTIMONY OF CHESTER NICHOLS, COUNSEL FOR BUNGE CORP., MINNEAPOLIS, MINN.-Resumed Mr. NICHOLS. I am in this gentleman's position and I have before me a document, signed by Mr. Smith in which he says, I have talked to this man or something else, and at a certain time and place he said to me, thus and so, or that he gave me a certain paper. Now, the customary procedure is for me to ask, "Did you at a certain time and place have a talk with Mr. Smith? Did you say so and so to him, or did you give him such and such a paper, and not to read the statement?" Now, if he denies, then you may have to call him. If he admits, you will never need Mr. Smith. That way we can make objections and that is the way it is done most everywhere unless it be before committees. Senator THYE. We don't want to introduce you to any new policies and for that reason, we will try to be as careful as we can be in raising questions with the witness, but I think we will let Mr. Guinane go forward with the questions he desires to make. Mr. GUINANE. I had questioned Mr. Vosika prior to lunch on a copy of a letter dated April 17, 1951, on the letterhead of Bunge Corp., addressed, "Dear Bob" and signed, "Walt." I asked Mr. Vosika who Bob was and he said Bob Henderson and at that time an employee at least of Bunge Corp. Senator THYE. Do you have a feeling that the memo may be relating or may be addressed to someone other than Mr. Robert J. Henderson? Mr. GUINANE. That possibility has been stated. Senator THYE. And you are now endeavoring to try to clarify the question in the memo you have before you as to whether that could have been addressed to someone else than Mr. Henderson? Mr. GUINANE. Yes. Senator THYE. And for that reason, you are asking this question of the witness, to try to ascertain whether it could have probably been someone other than Robert J. Henderson? Mr. GUINANE. Yes. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. I think it is going to be very interesting, Senator. Senator THYE. I can't see why you are objecting. Mr. NICHOLS. I yield the point. Mr. GUINANE. The Senate Agriculture and Forestry Committee had received from the Office of Compliance and Investigation of the Department of Agriculture a report dated January 27, 1951, by special agent, Samuel C. Smith. The caption of the report was "Transit Grain Co., Fort Worth, Tex.; Conspiracy to Defraud the Government by Commingling Domestic Grain With Import Grain." The agent reports that he was interviewing Mr. Putney. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. I think that is most unfair. I don't know what the caption has to do with the examination here of this witness and the imputation it is throwing on the thing is most unfair and I appeal to the Senator for any misapprehension. Mr. GUINANE. I am endeavoring to identify the report as they are usually identified. They are usually identified that way. Senator THYE. I want to be entirely fair, but the fact of the matter is when we reconvene our hearing in Galveston, Mr. Smith will be there. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. I am not objecting to that. Senator THYE. Mr. Smith will be interrogated. Mr. Smith can testify to a certain report that he made and about a certain memo dated April 17 addressed to "Dear Bob" and signed by "Walt." Mr. Guinane has the feeling that it is not Mr. Henderson. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. Mr. Guinane has the feeling-feeling mind youabout a certain memo dated April 17, addressed to "Dear Bob" and signed by "Walt." Mr. Guinane wants to ask some questions about it. In order to bring in the reference to it, he refers to a report by the Transit Grain Co. and this has absolutely nothing to do with that. The imputation there is something very particular and Transit Grain Co. has no comparison with Bunge and there is no evidence. I ask the Senator to strike that from the record. Mr. GUINANE. This has everything in it, and has to do with the Transit Grain Co. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. At this time, it is unfair. Mr. GUINANE. I think we have shown already, Senator, that the Bunge Corp. and Kellogg Milling Co. sold wheat to Transit Grain Co. and corresponded with them, and this piece of correspondence— I am trying to identify it right. Now, it has everything to do with the Transit Grain Corp. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. You do that by referring to the actual evidence. Mr. NICHOLS. Coming back to my original objection. You know that the proper procedure would be to ask this gentleman whether or not he did or said something to Mr. Smith. If he says he didn't, then you may have to call Mr. Smith, to show he is lying. admits it, that is all the further you must go. If he Mr. GUINANE. It may be proper rules of evidenceMr. NICHOLS. You and I as lawyers understand these procedures. Senator THYE. In order that we do not cause you gentlemen a concern that this committee is proceeding in an improper manner, we will get all the opportunities in the next week to interrogate Mr. Smith and if necessary, we can also bring whomever we desire from here to interrogate them at a new hearing. For that reason, Mr. Guinane, let's do it this way: You proceed to ask the questions that you desire without referring to the document and we will refer to the document at another time. You ask all the questions you desire. Leave the identity of the document out of the question. Mr. GUINANE. I can ask Mr. Vosika on this exhibit. Senator THYE. Definitely. It will be your questions rather than referring to a question which Mr. Smith had raised in his document. or his report. Any questions you desire, you proceed to ask them. I want these gentlemen to have a feeling that we are not in any sense exercising any authority over them that they might feel we justly are. not entitled to exercise. We will be exceedingly careful, but I will promise so far as that document goes, it will be given the full light of day. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. I don't object to this document. Mr. NICHOLS. I did object to the method of questioning. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. I am talking about the document Mr. Vosika has identified and he wrote it and, Senator, he has a perfect right to have it in here or any court of law that would be the document to be proceeded with, but, we were talking about something which has nothing to do with this record, something prepared outside this hearing room and you are dragging imputations from titles of the report, and on page 21 you are referring, creating an unfair inference. I don't think Mr. Guinane intended it that way. That reference to the title should be stricken from the record. I was not objecting to the document. Senator THYE. The title is that which he has compiled and covers the particular part of the file, and from there on we will make no further reference, but Mr. Guinane will proceed to ask all the questions he desires. We are not striking the document because it is a part of the file and we will refer to it at a future time. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. I think the Senator better than I could misinterpret what the citing of that title is about, but the way it was read so quickly, it gave an unfair inference. We will dispel with it now. Senator THYE. Yes, we will continue. Mr. GUINANE. In this memorandum you say you gave to Mr. Henderson, do you know whether a copy was sent was this sent by you to Transit Grain Co., and forwarded by Julian Scott or Mr. Potishman? Mr. VOSIKA. I was looking at my file to determine that, and I find a letter of August 27, 1951, written to Mr. Farrell, Gulf Forwarding Co., New Orleans. It says, "Dear Sir." At the bottom of this letter is a statement, "exhibit 4, memorandum prepared for use in this office in April 1951," and exhibit 4 is identified in the corner in ink and is the copy of the one that you are asking questions about, and I am sure that a copy of it, on the same basis, presumably, went to Transit Grain Co. because they asked me questions and it saved me work to give them the copy I had previously prepared for use in our own office and the Bob referred to is Mr. Robert J. Henderson. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. Senator, it is like a tempest in the teapot. Mr. MOSKOVITZ. The witness was not quite accurate in referring to it. Senator THYE. I thought it was tempest in the teapot. We are leaning over backward to be fair here, sir. |