in order to dramatize and emphasize the significance of the humanitarian aspect of the present conflict. We should put a very high priority, in terms of human life, and the humanitarian efforts of individual volunteer agencies, other international agencies. Now, as you are well aware, there are those, perhaps over on this side, in the Senate as well, that feel that we ought to cut off all economic aid to Pakistan. I am not one that would support that proposal. But we do have some leverage and we ought to use it in the interest of getting an urgently needed relief program underway. Humanitarian relief should be very high on any agenda we have for talks with Pakistan Government representatives. If we really did this, I think a great deal more could be done. Mr. DU PONT. Well, Senator, I tend to agree that one of the most appropriate ways we could bring relief in this type of a situation is through stronger action by the United States. The President, as I am sure you are aware, in his Foreign Aid Reorganization program, has suggested that we disassociate military and economic aid, and specifically, that we put humanitarian assistance in a special category by itself. Do you feel that adoption of this kind of a proposal would be advantageous to deal with a situation such as this? Senator KENNEDY. I certainly do. I must say, with some satisfaction, we made that recommendation, our subcommittee, over two and a half years ago. I think it is a sound one. I hope we can get support for it. I think it makes a great deal of sense. And I hope not only we do that here within our own system, but that we would set up a similar program at the United Nations, and support that strongly as well. Mr. DU PONT. Thank you, Senator. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. GALLAGHER. Thank you, Mr. du Pont. I might say in passing, Mr. du Pont, that it was very interesting to sit here and listen to a Kennedy and a du Pont discuss the possibilities of bankruptcy. Mr. GALLAGHER. Mr. Murphy? Mr. MURPHY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Kennedy, I, too, would like to thank you for bringing to the attention of this subcommittee this problem in East Pakistan. I am wondering, Senator, do you or any members of your staff have any idea of an appropriate amount to aid East Pakistan with or give to India to take care of these refugees? Senator KENNEDY. No, I wouldn't be prepared now to try and give you any dollar figure. I think it is more in terms-I don't know how to evaluate a C-130 and additional kinds of helicopter support that might be made available. Our efforts have always been in support of governmental or international agencies that have made aid requests. We have never tried to say, well, we think that there is an overall kind of a figure. What we have tried to do is work with the various voluntary and other agencies that say we can utilize so much food or tin roofing or certain kinds of transportation. Then what I and the subcommittee have always tried to do is to see if we can get a positive response, assuming, of course, that the agencies' request is valid. The Indian Government has made some requests. They have only gotten two and a half million dollars, from the administration. Now, what I would say is that two and a half million dollars is not an adequate response. If you were to say, well, "would $20 million be?" or something or the other, I would rather leave those specifics to the volunteer agencies and the Government of India. Mr. MURPHY. Also, in your statement, Senator, I know that you make mention of the fact that U.S. arms are being used in this civil war. Senator KENNEDY. That is right. Mr. MURPHY. Would you favor a cutoff of these arms? Mr. MURPHY. To East Pakistan? Senator KENNEDY. Yes, at least until we have gotten the relief agencies going. And then I really think we ought to make an in-depth review of security questions in that part of the world. That ought to be something which obviously this committee is interested in, but I wouldn't begin to make a judgment on the outcome at this point. But I do favor and have favored and urged in the early days that we have a complete halt of arms to Pakistan at this time. Mr. MURPHY. What assurances, Senator, do we have? I know on Biafra, when we went to its aid, a lot of the supplies didn't reach the people in question. Senator KENNEDY. That is right. That is very true. Mr. MURPHY. What steps could we take, in your judgment, to assure that if we do get involved in any substantial manner the aid does reach the people? Senator KENNEDY. This is always an enormously difficult problem. We have it in terms of Vietnam too, where in excess of a third of the piaster payments for refugees disappear between the time of allocation and the time of receipt. This is something that is very real. Now, I think the volunteer agencies record on this generally has been enormously creditable. They have great kinds of problems, and they are accentuated at the time of mass starvation, and one can readily understand this. But I think that the record of the volunteer agencies is creditable in this area. So I think this is an administrative problem. I think we have to be somewhat understanding about this. And I think the nature of many humanitarian problems is sufficient to compel us to respond in a positive way. Mr. MURPHY. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. GALLAGHER. Thank you, Mr. Murphy. Mr. Whalley. Mr. WHALLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your statement, Senator Kennedy. You say there are nearly two million refugees in India, with another 50,000 added every day. The United States bas given $21⁄2 million in assistance. What does it cost to keep 2 million refugees per week? Senator KENNEDY. It is awfully difficult, Congressman. The Indian estimate is approximately 50 cents a day. I would think that would be high. But that is their estimate. I do feel that our $2 million contribution is woefully inadequate. Mr. WHALLEY. Do you think these people will eventually go back to Pakistan? Senator KENNEDY. Well, there are some very serious, as I understand, questions in the Indian Government's mind whether they will. As I understand, there is increasing relocation of West Pakistanis into East Pakistan so as to move into the areas the refugees have left-to try and bring about settlements that will be more loyal to the central government. There are enormous kinds of religious questions involving Moslems and Hindus, and other kinds of social questions. I think people generally desire to return to their homes, when there is a cessation of hostilities. There has been this tradition in other problems. I would generally think that that is true here. But I wouldn't be able to add anything more to it than I have. Mr. WHALLEY. Your statement shows that 526,000 people are in camps. How about the other million and a half refugees? Do people take them into their homes? Senator KENNEDY. Well, there are camps that have been set up. They are emergency kinds of facilities at best. The refugees not in them are sort of setting up whatever kind of shelter that they can, focusing around feeding areas and centers, and so forth. Camps, I suppose, is just sort of a descriptive word. I don't think it describes what one would normally think of as a refugee camp, in terms of water supply, a school, latrines-in terms of the six or seven different criteria which are normally associated with a refugee center. They are camps as in the loosest frame of the word. Mr. WHALLEY. Is India contributing directly? Senator KENNEDY. They are paying the whole thing, outside of the $22 million. They are supporting the whole feeding process at the present time to the extent they can. That is my understanding. Mr. WHALLEY. Are other countries volunteering help, financially or with food? Senator KENNEDY. Well, there has been some contribution. I understand it has been rather of a minimum nature. I would like to be able to submit that if I can find it out. I would like to be able to submit that later. I understand there is some. It hasn't been of a significant dimension, as of today. (The information to be supplied follows:) Contributions of other countries and international agencies to relief for Pakistani refugees in India (Source: Department of State) 1. Australia: Australian Catholic Relief 2. Belgium: Government_ 3. Canada: Food, medicine, and cash to UNHCR 4. Germany: 1,000,000 DM to UNHCR.. 5. Ireland 6. Japan: Milk powder (61 t.), vitamin tablets (10,000,000). 7. Luxembourg 8. New Zealand: CORSO. 9. The Netherlands: 100,000 guilders to ICRC and UNHCR_. $5,000 11, 333 2, 000, 000 300, 000 7, 200 1, 390, 000 3, 000, 000 453 5, 000 28, 000 10. Norway: Norwegian Red Cross-stockfish.. 11. Philippines... Refugee Council. 12. Sweden: Swedish Red Cross-6.5 tons of medicines, 245 tents, 8,640 sweaters (approximate value).... 13. U.S.S.R.: 100,000,000 doses smallpox vaccine... 1 Unknown. Contributions of other countries and international agencies to relief for Pakistani refugees in India-Continued 14. United Kingdom: CAFOD__ Government £1,000,000 (to the UNHCR). 15. Licross: Red Cross Societies of Japan, Sweden, Denmark, Cash OXFAM and War on Want: 35 tons, mainly tents and 120, 000 18. UNHCR. 500, 000 19. UNICEF: 41 jeeps Drugs, food supplements, other supplies and domestic air 400, 000 20. World Council of Churches. 21. World food program: Existing stocks of oil and NFDM turned over to GOI___. Total:. 26, 077, 112 Unknown. Mr. WHALLEY. What are the prospects of aid from the United Nations? Senator KENNEDY. Well, I would think that there would be some positive response. The U.N. High Commissioner is there at the present time. He is well equipped, both by background and interest and experience, in making recommendations. He has significant influence in terms of the U.N. at the present time. At other times, when he has been involved with dislocated peoples, and humanitarian concerns, he has been extremely effective in winning support. I think all nations have the kinds of budgetary problems which we have. The plan that he will submit, I am sure, will be one of considerable interest and of compelling nature. I would think it would receive a favorable response. Mr. WHALLEY. Can the United Nations move fast enough? Senator KENNEDY. This is always a problem. I think this is always a question, even though they have some very talented people in UNICEF and various other specialized agencies-I think some of the most dedicated people in the world. We have seen what they can do in many areas of the world. Mr. WHALLEY. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. GALLAGHER. Senator, I understand you are wanted back on the Senate floor. Mr. Fulton, do you have any questions? Mr. FULTON. As a visitor to this subcommittee, a long-time friend of the witness, and members of his family, I wanted to be present and compliment him on his excellent statement first. On the deliberations of your subcommittee, at the Senate level, I think it is very wise that the affirmative positions be taken, because historically it has been the Congress that has acted. Senator KENNEDY. That is right. Mr. FULTON. The various administrations through the years, have conformed to the recommendations of Congress in refugee and dis placed persons' problems. So that your coming here today is much to the advantage of these displaced people, and refugees, because first, they have lost their country, secondly, their citizenship, along with their homes, their assets. The majority of these refugees are women and children, are they not? Senator KENNEDY. That is right. Mr. FULTON. The men always fend for themselves, and can better survive these conditions. Senator KENNEDY. That is right. Mr. FULTON. So wouldn't you agree that as these are mostly women and children, therefore there is a double need for quick action? Senator KENNEDY. That is right. Mr. FULTON. One other point I would like to make is this: Senator Javits and I, ever since he was a Congressman, have both been specially interested in refugees and displaced persons. In fact, I was chairman of the original Displaced Person and Refugee Subcommittee of this House Foreign Affairs on which Congressman Javits and I both served, and went to most of the major displaced person and refugee camps in Europe. On our return we had written a subcommittee report on the whole field of volunteer agencies and U.S.-organized charities abroad, so that it was possible to get an overlook of these total activities. I like your suggestion that we get such an overlook in this particular area, but I think such a program should be done in all of Southeast Asia. Senator KENNEDY. Yes. Mr. FULTON. Would you recommend that? Senator KENNEDY. Yes, I think it would be of great value. There are a few of the volunteer agencies that are getting out of Southeast Asia now, Indochina, because they just think that it-it would be worthwhile to know the reasons why, the problems that they face. Mr. FULTON. Well, your action is centering attention, as Mr. Javits and mine did. We were the only Congressmen that went aboard the refugee ship, Exodus, and came back and reported the terrible conditions of the refugees on the Exodus, and in their camps when they were taken off in the Netherlands. This appears to be a matter for special action by the U.S. Congress, making the push and taking the lead. Therefore, I want to say to you that I would be very glad to join with you and your subcommittee as well as Congressman Gallagher's subcommittee on helping on the refugee problem. There is one point further, and that is, on the $212 million initial aid that is promised by the U.S. Department of State. That sounds as if it is the first of a series. Did they give you any idea about the second or supplemental funds or how much they might give? Senator KENNEDY. No, I think that is a good question. I haven't gotten this. I think the administration ought to be able to provide that. Mr. FULTON. I believe we in Congress ought to come up with some sort of an estimate on that. Mr. GALLAGHER. I think we can probably do that. Mr. FULTON. Thank you for sharing your thinking with our members. We are glad to have you here, and you have made a very good presentation. Senator KENNEDY. Thank you. |