Mr. SARGEANT. Yes, sir. That relates, Senator McKellar, entirely to the item of $115,000,000 which was referred to by the chairman at the opening of this morning's session, and will be justified subsequently in these hearings.

Chairman MCKELLAR. We want to know-we want a justification of the items in this bill.

Senator MCCARRAN. Does it not come under your Department now, Mr. Sargeant?

Mr. SARGEANT. Yes; it does, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman MCKELLAR. Why is it included here?

Mr. SARGEANT. The operations, Senator, that fall under the Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs are financed out of two separately identified appropriations. The ones we are discussing this morning are financed out of "Salaries and expenses, Department of State," whereas the entire overseas information and educational exchange program is financed out of the separate appropriation item that your committee also considers.

Senator FERGUSON. But you tender these pages in support of this. Mr. SARGEANT. Only to show, Senator, that the Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs is the man under whom both of these operations are placed.

Senator MCCARRAN. That is right. You are here now, and it is all in your hands, all under your supervision.

Mr. SARGEANT. Yes; that is correct, Mr. Chairman.

Senator FERGUSON. Then, let us find out what the whole program is going to cost.

Mr. SARGEANT. May I make this point clear: With respect to our domestic operations, the totality of this, you will find on page 170 the request for 283 positions, the same number of positions on hand

now.

Senator FERGUSON. What page?

Mr. SARGEANT. Page 170.

Chairman MCKELLAR. You are asking for $1,398,640. That is correct; is it not?

Mr. SARGEANT. That is correct.

Senator MCCARRAN. Now, does that item, that sum, cover all of your activities in your Office? That is a pretty general question, but maybe we can break it down later on.

Mr. SARGEANT. It covers, Mr. Chairman, all the domestic activities. in our Office.

Senator MCCARRAN. How about the foreign activities?

OVERSEA INFORMATION AND EDUCATION EXCHANGE PROGRAM

Mr. SARGEANT. It does not cover the overseas information and educational exchange operations.

Senator MCCARRAN. Where does that come in?

Mr. SARGEANT. That comes under the appropriation called USIE, and it is identified in the amount of

Senator MCCARRAN. That is the item of $115,000,000?

Mr. SARGEANT. Yes; $115,000,000.

Senator MCCARRAN. And this is a relatively small amount.

Chairman MCKELLAR. It is "chicken feed."

Senator FERGUSON. Will the 283 employees work on both?
Mr. SARGEANT. No, sir; they will not.

Senator FERGUSON. How many employees have you now on the Foreign.

Mr. SARGEANT. I would have to supply that figure, Senator.

Mr. WILBER. Mr. Chairman, I think I can clarify this a bit. The Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs, Mr. Barrett, as an individual is responsible for administering and supervising both the domestic program and the overseas program. His immediate office, as indicated. on page 171, is financed totally from the "salary and expenses" appropriation.

Now, he happens to spend part of his time supervising the Voice of America and the information program. But the program proper, of course, is not financed through the "Salary and expenses" appropriation.

Senator FERGUSON. Well, now, for instance, you have one item here you say you keep them separate, and yet you have on page 172 an item indicating that you withdraw these people in order to perform emergency assignments in this field.

Mr. SARGEANT. Yes, sir. Now, Senator, this again is an operation that is purely domestic. The people work here. Their activities are directed entirely within the United States. This is entirely distinct from anything done abroad.

Senator FERGUSON. Do you mean to say that you separate the sale of your foreign policy in America from the foreign sale?

Mr. SARGEANT. Yes, sir.

Senator FERGUSON. And there is no connection other than that

you

Mr. SARGEANT. Of course, a connection is provided through the Assistant Secretary and his staff officers.

Senator FERGUSON. What is the difference?

Mr. SERGEANT. The operations are carried on entirely differently. Senator GREEN. Are you not the Assistant Secretary?

Mr. SERGEANT. I am the Deputy Assistant Secretary.

Senator FERGUSON. What is the difference between the sale of our foreign policy in relation to Formosa, outside of the United States, as compared to what it is inside the United States? All you are supposed to be doing is telling the truth; is it not?

Senator GREEN. It is more than that, of course.

Senator FERGUSON. Even more than telling the truth?

Senator GREEN. Yes.

Senator FERGUSON. I did not want to assign too great a burden to him.

Senator GREEN. I do not think they ought to tell the whole truth to the general public.

Senator FERGUSON. You think they ought to tell it to the international public? You do not mean that, and not to our general public? Senator GREEN. I think they ought to tell both of them what is in our interests.

Chairman MCKELLAR. Mr. Chairman, when they get through, I want to ask a question.

80513-51-pt. 1-71

PROPAGANDA DISSEMINATED ABROAD BUT NOT AT HOME

Mr. SARGEANT. Let me put it in these terms, if I may. I would say quite honestly to this committee, that I believe that we are in the business of propagandizing people abroad. I think we are trying to influence them psychologically toward the national objectives of this country.

Senator MCCARRAN. Yet when I put that question to you a while ago, you took exception.

Mr. SARGEANT. No, sir; because that, Senator, deals with the second part of our operation, where we were talking about our activities in this country. I took exception to saying that our operation was designed to propagandize the American people. We believe very strongly that we are not in the business of propagandizing the American people.

Senator FERGUSON. But the foreign people?

Mr. SARGEANT. We admit quite freely that we are in the business of propagandizing and persuading foreign people.

Senator FERGUSON. Well, now, will you tell me how you can separate your activities here, that is, domestically, with all of the newspaper services and all of the foreign reporters in this country, how can you separate what you are doing at home and what you are doing abroad? Mr. SARGEANT. Well, first, the things that we do abroad, other than centralized operations, such as the Voice of America, which originates here, are performed by people who are not in the United States. They are our Public Affairs officers, our press officers, our cultural attachés in the different countries abroad. You and Senator Green saw them in your recent trip and have seen them on other trips.

Now, the impact of what we are doing is totally abroad in the overseas program. The impact of what we are doing with the item we have before us today is primarily here in the United States, and on the people located here in the United States.

Senator FERGUSON. Do you actually use any agencies to get propaganda out or facts out?

Mr. SARGEANT. Again, may I ask a question for clarification?
Senator FERGUSON. Yes.

Mr. SARGEANT. In order to distinguish clearly between things that are done in the United States and those done abroad, do you mean in this country?

Senator FERGUSON. I am talking about what you do here.
Mr. SARGEANT. In the United States?

Senator FERGUSON. Yes; are you working through any agencies?

WORK CARRIED ON THROUGH AGENCIES HERE

Mr. SARGEANT. We are working through many agencies, in the sense of these 400 or more national organizations and the 700 or more regional organizations to whom we are sending publications and whose representatives are coming, at their own expense, to meetings with officers of the Department in Washington, and in the sense of the letters which come to the Department on foreign policy questions, and which are replied to.

Senator FERGUSON. Do you write speeches for certain organization people?

Mr. SARGEANT. You mean private organizations?
Senator FERGUSON. Yes.

Mr. SARGEANT. No, sir.

Senator FERGUSON. For instance, the one for the organization is, I believe, known as the Committee on the Present Danger.

Mr. SARGEANT. No, sir; we have not.

Senator FERGUSON. Do you write any speeches at all for that kind of organization?

sir.

Mr. SARGEANT. For organizations external to the Government; no,

Senator FERGUSON. You do not prepare those?

Mr. SARGEANT. No, sir.

Senator FERGUSON. You just send out the publications?

Mr. SARGEANT. We send them publications, fact sheets, background summaries, and other items that are published by the Department. Chairman MCKELLAR. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question? Senator MCCARRAN. All right, sir.

Chairman MCKELLAR. I note that at page 172 of your justifications you state:

The Office of Public Affairs plans and conducts programs, the purpose of which is to explain and interpret to the American public the foreign policy of the United States and the significance of world developments in international relations, as well as to keep the Department informed on the trends in American public opinion concerning international relations.

What are the departments that you keep informed? Will you give us the names of them?

Mr. SARGEANT. This means the Department of State.

Chairman MCKELLAR. I understand that. I resent that. I want to know what the departments are you referred to, who are the men? Mr. SARGEANT. I am sorry, sir; I misunderstood your question. This means officials of the Department, starting with

Chairman McKELLAR. I want to know who they are. It includes the Secretary of State, of course.

Mr. SARGEANT. The Secretary of State, the Under Secretary of State, the Deputy Under Secretary of State, and the Assistant Secretaries for the various regions, as well as the Assistant Secretary for Economic Affairs, the Assistant Secretary for United Nations Affairs, the Director of the Bureau of German Affairs, and the subordinate officials who work with them.

Chairman McKELLAR. You state further:

develops and conducts a program of research on American foreign policy and publishes historical studies thereon for the use of the Department and the public; initiates and coordinates the domestic publication policy of the Department; and executes its publication program.

What is the domestic policy of the Department?
Mr. SARGEANT. This means, Senator McKellar-

CLARIFICATION OF OBJECTIVE OF OFFICE

Chairman McKELLAR. I would like to know what it means in plain English, because you can't tell anything from this about what you spend your money for.

Mr. SARGEANT. I will see if I can make this bureaucratic language a little simpler.

Let me take this paragraph that you have just read.
Chairman McKELLAR. All right.

Mr. SARGEANT. Here is what we are doing, in the simplest terms: I will try to keep the official language out.

This says that Mr. Francis Russell, who is here with me, directs an office which reports to the Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs. His office has the job of finding ways of telling the American people what are the foreign-policy decisions that are being made and what are the facts that underlie those decisions.

Further, we have the job of keeping in touch with American public opinion, as expressed in editorial comments in our newspapers, by commentators on the radio, by what is said in the Congress, and by what private citizens and national organizations are saying on these issues, and seeing that those American opinions are brought to the attention of these officers that I have referred to in the Department.

PUBLICATION OF "FOREIGN RELATIONS SERIES"

In addition, the office collects the basic diplomatic records of our relations with other countries, and publishes them in a series called The Foreign Relation Series. They are books that your committee has used.

Senator FERGUSON. But they are old ones. They are usually published years afterward.

Mr. SARGEANT. Senator Ferguson, they are about 17 years behind the current date. We are now publishing the 1934 and 1935 historical records.

Chairman McKELLAR. At what cost?

Mr. SARGEANT. Here is such a volume-one of these books usually costs about $3.

Chairman MCKELLAR. How many have you published?

Mr. SARGEANT. This series started in 1861. We are now down to 1934.

Mr. Thompson, can you give me the exact number of volumes that have been published in that series, since 1861?

Mr. THOMPSON. We have published 162 volumes to date. Senator FERGUSON. How many personnel do you have in the Department that gets these volumes out entitled "Foreign Relations of the United States, Diplomatic Papers, 1934," in five volumes?

Mr. SARGEANT. That falls within two of the divisions in the Office of Public Affairs. There is a total of 16 people who are concerned with the preparation of these volumes, and 20 people who are concerned with the publication. That makes a total, sir, of 36 people in

all.

Chairman MCKELLAR. Now, look at page 170 of the justifications, and tell us under which one of the items that comes under.

Mr. SARGEANT. That, sir, falls under point No. 4, on page 171: Formulating and directing the conduct of a historical research program on American policy for the use of the Department and the public.