the past it is not going to be an effective program, I don't care how sincere we may be about it. And one of the reasons why I have been hopeful that we would get greater attention if it were transferred to the Department of Defense was that it would have this impact. upon the thinking of the American people, that it was an arm of our defense program, and an important one.

This is my hope. And without an educational program I just cannot conceive of it being very effective.

VALUE OF SHELTERS IN THE CENTERS OF CITIES

Mrs. GRIFFITHS. I would like to say further, Mr. Secretary, in regard to this shelter program, that while I wish you all possible success, if a bomb hit at night, the District that I represent-with which you are quite well acquainted, I am sure the people would be from 8 to 15 miles from a shelter, any kind of a shelter. There is not one building in my district that in my opinion would be an adequate shelter. And I have listened for a long time to these programs. And I doubt if you could get those people back down into a shelter, or if anybody in his right mind at the time of the alarm would be willing to try for the interior of Detroit. So I think the shelter marking program, while it might have some real advantages, in the long run can be both an illusion and a snare if you think that you are going to save anybody with it.

Secretary MCNAMARA. This is a rather important point. We are presenting to the Congress a request for $200 million, $207 million. I wouldn't wish this committee to believe that we would present such a request to Congress if we felt that the program would not be effective.

In developing this program we have had available to assist us the citizens in the country who have specialized in the shelter studies and shelter surveys. There have been several men from the Stanford Research Institute, which has done much work in this field.

I am sure that the estimates we have included in our paper in support of our program are correct. There is every reason to believe that the program will save 10 to 15 million lives in the event of an attack. The problems that you mentioned as they relate to Detroit are difficult. We have taken an account of those when we made this estimate.

I have been encouraged to believe that the saving of life will exceed the figures we have indicated. I don't wish to overstate them. And we, therefore, indicated the potential saving at 10 to 15 million lives.

In the particular case of Detroit, there are churches, there are schools, there are other public buildings, I can think of two or three office buildings on the periphery of the city, and there are a number of other areas that I believe we can identify and indicate as shelters and stock as shelters.

Mrs. GRIFFITHS. Thank you very much.

We have a quorum call, and we are going to have to go.

Did you have a question?

Mr. MORSE. I have one question, if I may.

I would just like to support the statement of Mr. Riehlman on the educational aspects of this. This is the big deterrent, it seems to me, of an effective civil defense program. Within the last 2:

months this Congress, firmly in the grip of the President's party, deleted from the independent offices appropriations bill funds for fallout shelters in the Veterans' Administration hospitals. I think your educational efforts must be direct to the public at large, or else they must be directed to the Congress.

Secretary MCNAMARA. That is why I wish to emphasize the great benefit that this program will bring to the Nation. I don't represent it as the solution to the fallout problem by any means, but it is a tremendous step forward. We need the funds and we know you support our request.

Mrs. GRIFFITHS. If worst comes to worst, I suggest you give those thousand employees a pick and a shovel and let them construct them. I wish to thank you on behalf of the subcommittee for appearing. The subcommittee is adjourned.

(Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the subcommittee recessed, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Wednesday, August 2, 1961.)

CIVIL DEFENSE-1961

WEDNESDAY, AUGUST 2, 1961

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES,

SUBCOMMITTEE ON MILITARY OPERATIONS

OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS,

Washington, D.C.

The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 10 a.m., in room 362, the caucus room, Old House Office Building, Hon. Chet Holifield (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.

Present: Representatives Chet Holifield (presiding), Edward A. Garmatz, Joe M. Kilgore, Martha W. Griffiths, and R. Walter Riehl

man.

Also present: Herbert Roback, staff administrator; and Douglas Dahlin, staff attorney; Earl J. Morgan, chief investigator; Paul Ridgely, investigator; and Robert McElroy, investigator.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. The subcommittee will be in order.

Today we hear from Frank B. Ellis, Director of the Office of Civil and Defense Mobilization. Mr. Ellis will have his supporting staff with him.

Before we proceed to hear the testimony, we're going to take the opportunity of recognizing one of our colleagues, Congressman William E. Minshall of Ohio. Mr. Minshall was a member of this subcommittee for several years before he went to the Appropriations Committee, and he has a deep interest in this matter. He is now on the Committee on Appropriations. And we are extending to him the usual courtesy of making a presentation.

Congressman Minshall, will you please come forward?
I understand you have a short statement.

STATEMENT OF HON. WILLIAM E. MINSHALL, A REPRESENTATIVE
IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF OHIO

Mr. MINSHALL. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, as a former member of this subcommittee, I doubly appreciate having the privilege of appearing before you today.

As you all well remember and, years ago, several Congresses ago, Mr. Holifield went into this matter of civil defense with great care and great diligence. And that is when interest was first aroused in this most important matter of civil defense, and, of course, fallout shelters. This legislation that I have introduced, H.R. 5677, of course, is not before this committee, it is before the House Ways and Means Committee. And they are awaiting a report from the Treasury Department before they take any action on the measure.

I should also like to point out that other members of this subcommittee, including Mr. Riehlman who is here today, have in the past introduced similar legislation of the type that you have before you here in H.R. 5677.

TAX EXEMPTION FOR HOME FALLOUT SHELTERS

Mr. Chairman and colleagues, I appear before you today to testify in behalf of my bill, H.R. 5677, which would grant tax exemptions to citizens who construct home fallout shelters.

The President himself has given impetus to the necessity of preparing ourselves for the possibility of all-out war. He is asking vastly stepped-up funds for civil defense. I, myself, as a member of the Defense Department Appropriations Subcommittee have long recognized the need for such a practical precaution-this is the third Congress in which I have introduced this incentive legislation.

More dramatically than anything I, or even our Chief Executive, can say regarding the need for home shelters are the daily headlines which emphasize the necessity of hoping for the best and expecting the worst.

It seems incredible that in these times Americans are more preoccupied in building backyard barbecues and swimming pools than in protecting themselves against the awesome possibility of being incinerated and vaporized like flies on a grill.

Some of you may recall that the Pentagon, using electronic computers, last year estimated that 100 million Americans would die in the event of an all-out thermonuclear attack on United States cities.

Pentagon top brass fed into the mechanical brains top-secret facts and estimates of United States versus Soviet weapons systems, in a variety of strategies. The computers came up with the horrifying statistics: most of our population would be either instantly cremated or die from the effects of fallout radiation.

The same computers that clicked out this ghastly information reported that more than half these Americans would survive if vigorous civil defense measures are taken-chief among them construction of home fallout shelters.

My home city of Rocky River, in the 23d District of Ohio, pioneered in home shelter construction. My State of Ohio was the first in the Union to grant tax exemptions to citizens who construct such shelters, or who improve existing facilities to provide protection.

Such legislation on the national level is highly appropriate. It is completely in line with the philosophy of resolving as many problems as possible on the local level. It would generate the interest and incentive needed to promote a countrywide shelter program. It would not replace but would supplement and complement any Federal program for community shelters.

H.R. 5677 would permit amortization over a 60-month period of certain civil defense facilities. It is logical and necessary legislation if we are to spur our citizens to protect themselves and to assure the survival of the United States.

Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the privilege of appearing here today.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. Thank you very much, Congressman, for taking the time to come before our committee. We appreciate your interest in this subject. Unfortunately, up until recent days, civil defense has been something which people kind of smiled at. But I assure you, it is not a smiling matter. We appreciate your testimony, and we appreciate any suggestion as to how this tremendously vast and complicated problem can be solved.

Thank you, sir.

Mr. MINSHALL. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. HOLIFIELD. Mr. Ellis, you may come forward now with your

staff.

STATEMENT OF FRANK B. ELLIS, DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF CIVIL AND DEFENSE MOBILIZATION; ACCOMPANIED BY EDWARD A. McDERMOTT, DEPUTY DIRECTOR; CHARLES A. KENDALL, GENERÁL COUNSEL; RALPH E. SPEAR, DIRECTOR, PROGRAM AND POLICY; AND CHARLES BREWTON, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, RESOURCES AND PRODUCTION

Mr. ELLIS. May I introduce to the committee Mr. Edward McDermott, who is my Deputy Director, and Mr. Charles Brewton, who has been appointed by the President and assigned to head the Resources and Production Division of OCDM.

Shall I proceed, sir?

Mr. HOLIFIELD. You may proceed. But, before you proceed, Mr. Ellis, let the Chair state that this subcommittee appreciates the vigorous way in which you have proceeded since you have been in the Office of Civil and Defense Mobilization. We recognize the fact that you have been making a hard fight for the survival of our civilian population. And we applaud you for the firmness with which you have stood and the fierceness with which you have fought for the principles in which you believe. We may not agree with you on all the positions you have taken, and you may not agree with us, but, nevertheless, we recognize you as a stanch fighter for the preservation of our civilian population in the event of nuclear attack.

You may proceed.

Mr. ELLIS. Thank you, sir. It makes the sacrifices worthwhile with that kind of recognition, sir.

It is a pleasure to appear before this committee, which has been both friend and critic to civil defense for the past six years. I should like to pay a special tribute to you, Mr. Chairman, for your statesmanship and vision in supporting this program during the lean years-years in which as a nation we did little while the Soviet Union was spending large sums on civil defense preparedness. I wish to note also the support Mr. Riehlman and others have given to this program in the past. I am confident that on a matter of the national survival, which is what civil defense is, this nonpartisan support will continue.