Dr. WISE. Of course, that does not mean anything to me. I have not enough mathematical sense to comprehend the significance of that remark.

Senator ELLENDER. But I am just trying to tell you, sir, of the problem that we have faced and solved.

Dr. WISE. Yes, oh, of course, you face grave problems.

Senator ELLENDER. Of course, we do; and that is why I would like for advancers of such bills as this to be better acquainted with our problem and to consider the effect that it would have, not on us, but on the people we are trying to help down South.

You know the old saying, "You may lead a camel to water but you can't make him drink."

Senator IVES. Lead a horse, I think, Senator.

Dr. WISE. The camel is used, in compliment to me, as a Semite, because camels are the animals of burden in the part of the world from which my ancestors came, after they gave the Christian world the Decalogue.

Senator ELLENDER. Dr. Wise, I would like to ask you this question.
Dr. WISE. Yes, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. Suppose after the war the States of the South had not seen fit to pass segregation laws, and the large colored population would have been permitted to mingle with the whites on a social equality plane, do you not think that that fraternizing would have led to intermarriage?

Such association, to my mind, would no doubt have led to such intermarriage. Do you agree with that?

Dr. WISE. Will you forgive me for saying, Senator Ellender, your question is interesting, but I cannot see its relevance to the problem that I have been privileged to discuss here, the Ives bill.

Senator ELLENDER. I am asking you the direct question. If you do not want to answer it, you do not have to.

Dr. WISE. I cannot see its relevance. I have the greatest respect for you, Senator-

Senator ELLENDER. It may not be relevant according to your viewpoint but I have asked you a question. If you care to do so, answer it. If you do not, it is all right.

Dr. WISE. I think that the white people of the South do some things well and some things ill, and subconsciously you used a phrase, Mr. Senator, which I think indicates an utterly Aryan state of mind in the South.

Senator ELLENDER. A what?

Dr. WISE. "Haven't we cared for the colored people in the South better than you in the North have?"

The Negro people are entitled to the right to care for themselves. They will never be able to care for themselves as long as discrimination in employment is permitted. That is the thing I am interested in. I am not interested in remote social theories. I have never paused to consider, because it is not a reality, the question of social relationship leading to intermarriage.

And then, Mr. Senator, you will forgive me for saying, there has been a great deal of living on the part of white men with colored women in relationships unlegal and unpermissible, illicit, and that does

not seem to be decried with anything like the earnestness with which intermarriage is decried and feared by the white people of the South. Is not that true?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes; we have had that disgrace in the South as you are having it in the North. There is no question about it, but I will say that I have never seen as many half-breeds below the MasonDixon's line as I have seen above it.

Dr. WISE. There is an immense amount.

Senator ELLENDER. I will not question you further, because, as you indicate, you do not care to express an opinion on it, or you say it is not relevant.

Dr. WISE. I came here as president of the American Jewish Congress empowered to discuss the Ives bill, which I favor with all my heart. I have no authorization from the congress to discuss-and I am its servant as well as its president-to discuss the problem of racial social relations, intermarriage, promiscuity. I am perfectly willing to have a public debate with you, Mr. Senator, poor and old as I am, on that whole question, but not in this room.

Senator ELLENDER. Very well.

Senator DONNELL. Thank you very much, Dr. Wise, for coming, and we appreciate your statement.

Dr. WISE. It is a very great honor to have come and sat with you and presented the viewpoint, and the Congress, through me, thanks you for your courtesy, and I hope I have not been discourteous to the Senator.

Senator ELLENDER. No, sir; you have not, and that wish is mutual. Dr. WISE. I am too old to be discourteous. I learned one thing in 73 years, to be courteous to men in authority.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Chat Paterson, legislative representative of the American Veterans Committee.

Mr. PATERSON. Mr. Chairman, I am Chat Paterson.

Mr. Gilbert Harrison, who is our national vice chairman and one of the founders of the American Veterans Committee, is here and would like to present our testimony today.

Senator DONNELL. What is his name?

Mr. PATERSON. Gilbert Harrison.
Senator DONNELL. Very well.

You do not appear today?

Mr. PATERSON. No, sir. Mr. Harrison is going to appear for us.
Senator DONNELL. Mr. Harrison, would you come forward?

Please state your full name, address, and connection in which you appear.

STATEMENT OF GILBERT HARRISON, NATIONAL VICE CHAIRMAN, AMERICAN VETERANS COMMITTEE

Mr. HARRISON. My name is Gilbert A. Harrison.

I am the national vice chairman of the American Veterans Committee. My home is in California. I am now working with the American Veterans Committee in New York, and I will present testimony in behalf of the Federal law against discrimination, S. 984, on behalf, officially, of the American Veterans Committee.

Senator DONNELL. What is the American Veterans Committee?

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Mr. HARRISON. The American Veterans Committee, sir, is an organization of the veterans of World War II.

Senator DONNELL. How large a membership does it have?

Mr. HARRISON. It has now slightly over 100,000 members organized in all of the 48 States.

Senator DONNELL. Do you have a copy with you of any of its literature, its constitution, its circulars, or anything giving its general background?

Mr. HARRISON. I can leave that with the committee, sir. I believe Mr. Paterson has some of that material.

I do have with me a constitution of the organization, which I will be glad to leave with you now.

(The document referred to was filed with the committee.)

Senator DONNELL. The committee will be in recess for a few minutes, subject to the recall of the Chair.

(Thereupon, at 11 a. m., a recess was taken by the committee.) Senator DONNELL. The committee will again be in order.

Mr. Harrison, is the American Veterans Committee an organization that has largely the same membership as the American Legion, or is it a different composition and membership?

Mr. HARRISON. I do not know, sir, how many members of the American Veterans Committee also belong to the American Legion. Our membership, of course, is restricted to those who served in the last war and our organization is not open to those who fought in World War I.

Senator DONNELL. I do not mean to be offensive at all in questioning you, but I want to be frank at the same time.

There has been considerable criticism of the American Veterans Committee on the general ground that it represents what I might term a left-wing composition of our population; that is correct, is it not? Mr. HARRISON. I have read such criticism, sir.

Senator DONNELL. And that has been very widely believed in over the United States; is that correct?

Mr. HARRISON. Unfortunately I believe it has been; yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Could you tell us anything about the composition of the American Veterans Committee; whether or not there is any communistic tendency of that organization particularly, or anything that would justify, in your judgment, the charge that it does have leanings in that direction?

Mr. HARRISON. I have difficulty in answering the question, Senator, because, although I have read the accusations, I know the composition of our membership, and I know the platform that we have adopted, which I shall file with this committee later today, and I can cite many instances in which the position of the American Veterans Committee is directly opposed to that of the Communist Party, and I can introduce other statements from the Communist publications themselves that have been very critical of the American Veterans Committee.

I will give just one example of what I mean, sir.

The American Veterans Committee from its inception has taken a stand against the granting of a Federal bonus because of our whole point of view, namely, that veterans should be citizens first and veterans second, and should be primarily concerned as a veterans' organization with the building of the entire community rather than for any special privilege of veterans as a class.

Our antibonus stand is consistent with that.

On the other hand, the position of the Communist Party, in its official publications, has been very strongly for a bonus, and they regard our position as idealistic.

That is only one example of a difference of opinion.

I think I can safely say that the stories that have been circulated are without foundation in fact.

Senator DONNELL. Again I do not want you to take offense at this, but I think we should have our record here perfectly clear. It is as to the type of organization and its principles.

Mr. HARRISON. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Has there been any investigation of your organization that you know of made by the Committee on Un-American Activities of the House of Representatives?

I am not sure whether it has or not, and I want to find out.

Mr. HARRISON. There has been an investigation, sir. It has been done in complete secrecy, because we have never been called before the committee; and, as a matter of fact, I believe that the question was asked of the committee-Mr. Paterson can correct me if I am wrong in this-as to whether they had any interest in the American Veterans Committee, and I believe the answer was a categorical “no.” I know we have not appeared before the committee.

Senator DONNELL. I do not mean any implication in my question, that it has been. I am asking solely for information, and I did not know.

Mr. HARRISON. I would like also to say, Senator, since you have raised this question, that the statement of policy that was passed by AVC's board of directors some time ago in regard to the Communist Party seems to be one of the clearest and most forthright statements of opposition to the Communist Party in what it proposes for America that I have seen come out of any organization.

Senator DONNELL. Would you mind furnishing us with a copy of that for the record?

Mr. HARRISON. I will also place that in the record.

Senator DONNELL. Very well.

If you will send it to Mr. Rodgers, the clerk of the committee, he will see that it is incorporated.

(The statement on communism referred to follows:)

STATEMENT ON COMMUNISM PASSED BY THE NATIONAL PLANNING COMMITTEE OF THE AMERICAN VETERANS COMMITTEE, AT ITS QUARTERLY MEETING, NOVEMBER 9-11, 1946

In its relatively brief existence as a full-fledged national organization, the American Veterans Committee has dedicated itself to the goal of making peace, full civil liberties, and economic security realities which all citizens, regardless of race, religion, or national origin may enjoy. We of AVC's national planning committee, in working toward those objectives, assigned us by our supreme governing body, our membership, have been determined to maintain our independence as an organization committed to no alliance. Too many forward-thinking organizations in recent years have founded on the rocks of dissension after having permitted themselves, unwittingly or otherwise, to be swayed in their views by the persistent arguments of spokesmen for outside influences who have disguised their real motives under the deceptive cloak of joint action.

The responsibility for the dissolution of so many useful groups can be placed directly upon the American Communist Party, which, recognizing the readiness of progressives to accept the cooperation of seemingly sympathetic individuals,

has continually instructed its members to enter these organizations and attempt to take an aggressive part in their internal affairs.

The party members usually come in crying "Unity." Although they mean unity on their own terms, their plea invariably gets a sympathetic hearing from many progressives who are properly indignant at the endless illiberal mouthings of the leaders of American reaction and whose indignation spurs them into an acceptance of unity on any term. The Communist Party has demonstrated its real attitude toward "unity" time and again, within the framework of progressive groups, by diverting the energies of those groups to matters of peculiar interest to the party and by villification of sincere liberals who reject the Communist philosophy. By ceaselessly instigating confusion and suspicion, the Communist Party ultimately renders the groups impotent as effective champions of democracy. Those members of the Communist Party who served in the armed forces, and those veterans who, while not holding membership in the party, unwaveringly pursue its shifting line, have repeatedly been urged by the party's leaders to infiltrate into veterans' organizations. Originally the Communist Party advised those veterans to join the American Legion; more recently it has advised them to join AVC in addition.

The political affiliations of our members are, as a rule, of no concern to us. We are a nonpartisan organization. We do not endorse parties or candidates, and we do not expect our members to subscribe to any particular political point of view. We demand of them, however, that they subscribe to the preamble to our national constitution, which obliges them to agree to "preserve the Constitution of the United States * * insure the rights of free speech, free press, free worship, free assembly, and free elections maintain full production and full employment in our country under a system of private enterprise in which business, labor, agriculture, and government cooperate."

*

* * *

It is obvious that no Communist Party member can honestly endorse our preamble, but we are aware that such dishonesty does not constitute grounds for expulsion from the Communist Party. We know that those few party members who by false declaration have joined AVC consider their espousal of our principles secondary to their espousal of the principles of the political party to which they pledge unblinking allegiance. Those principles include the ultimate abandonment to the dictatorship of a minority those personal freedoms the American Communist Party professes to defend. We know that their ostensible devotion to our purposes is overshadowed by that greater loyalty which traditionally makes the members of the Communist Party such earnest and relentless workers and enables so few in number to exercise so great an influence.

In this postwar era, the Communist Party has repeatedly called attention to the fact that its present line is, on many issues, consonant with that of many progressive groups. The party has used this partial agreement as an excuse for demanding that progressives cooperate with it in working for the attainment of specific objectives. We regard such proposed cooperation as fatal. The attempts of honest progressives to attain their objectives by intelligent, constructive action have repeatedly been hamstrung or completely nullified by the irrational, illconsidered tactics of the few Communist Party members who have clung leech-like to them and whose sole purpose it is to agitate and confuse, not to achieve reforms where reforms are needed. Their consuming interest is the expansion of their own political power and all organizations are to them merely vehicles for their ride to power. We are particularly outraged by the current efforts of the Communist Party to exploit the hardships of the veteran in order to further the party's selfish political ends.

It would be easy to disavow these Communists if it were their policy to identify themselves for what they are. That is not their policy. The Communist Party is a secret, conspiratorial organization whose members, with few exceptions, take the greatest pains not to disclose their real affiliations. Lasting progress has never been achieved by fraud.

As veterans who believe firmly in the democratic ideals which we have endorsed, we reject the notion that the Communist Party possesses the key to the magic formula whereby the betterment of human welfare can be achieved. We spurn the insincere cooperation of a minority group unquestioningly obeying leaders whose objectives, including a totalitarian dictatorship of the extreme left, are irreconcilable with our own.

In taking this position, we are unhappily aware that we shall be accused from some quarters of having joined forces with those distasteful spokesmen of the right who have loosely and maliciously applied the label "Communist" to any