that all-over body is the Nation, and for that reason, I believe in certain legislative forms to implement certain ideals.

I know Senator, that you and I agree on the basic ideals yet having life both in the North and in the South and in the West and in parts of New England. I know that patterns have a great deal to do with how people react, and for that reason, I am in favor of a bill of this character which sets a national pattern for a thing which is basically national.

I mean the right to work belongs to every person, no matter what his religion or ancestry. Everyone would agree to that in principle, yet when it comes into the field of the actual relationships, we are human beings.

Senator ELLENDER. Insofar as my State is concerned, I don't know of any cases where any employees were turned down because of their religion.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. Senator, something must have happened to Louisiana since I was a student at Tulane.

Senator ELLENDER. I am talking about employment.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. I am talking about employment, sir.
Senator ELLENDER. Well, I don't know of any cases.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. I was in the city of New Orleans for 1913 to 1916. For 3 years I was called damned Yankee. I got along very beautifully, but I remember distinctly the policy of one organization which would not employ a friend of mine whose name was Stokes for no other reason than that he happened to be a Catholic, and I know of some of my fellow Jewish students, who were not too many, who, when the university had a very fine project, we were going to build a stadium-you may remember that time and everybody was supposed to give 1 day's labor for that project. Several of us went out to work for that 1 day. I was on the committee and I had to wear a button, and I remember very specifically one of the stores in New Orleans said to me, "We'll help the project, but don't send us any Jews." I said, "It is a tough thing for me to do because I happen to be one myself," and, of course, I then got the usual answer: "Please don't misunderstand me. Some of my best friends are Jews, but that is the policy of the house." [Laughter.]

I say that, sir, because I believe it is true that in some parts, religion does play a part, but there are other things-I believe nationality. Sometimes the two are mixed.

Senator ELLENDER. As I said, I repeat, such a practice has never come to my notice. I have never been confronted with such a condition.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. Are you referring to the Public Utilities Corp., which at one time in the city of New Orleans found it very difficult, I know, to employ-well, Jews in the telephone company found it very difficult to find employment. It was difficult to get the reason, but they were alike in every other respect.

I was associated with some of the activities as a young man while going to law school. I was the assistant superintendent of the employment office, and when our girls and boys reached a certain age, naturally, we had to find employment for some of them. So, Senator, in all honesty and in a genuine spirit, I tell you there were such instances there.

Senator ELLENDER. I don't deny it. I say they haven't come to my attention and the cases are far apart, I imagine.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. That may be, sir. In the city of New York, the cases are not very far apart.

It is immoral and is destructive of the welfare of our democracy because it tends to set group against group and to sharpen a sense of conflict between classes. While the churches and synagogues and many public-spirited groups conduct campaigns of education against all forms of hatred and bigotry which result in discrimination, this is not enough.

The text of the Ives-Chavez bill will provide not only for additional educational effort and certain techniques of arbitration and conference, but will give to aggrieved persons a chance to have their wrongs rectified. It will make it costly for employers and others to practice discrimination, as well as give the entire subject the additional safeguard of being not merely immoral and irreligious, but unlawful.

The reason I favor some legislation is not merely because of the punitive idea; punish somebody. In business, if a thing is costly, they wouldn't do it. Now while mention has been made of employees here only, I speak of unions just as well. I think that unions in some cases are just as guilty, that if it is costly for them to do it, if it doesn't pay to follow a certain policy, then they wouldn't follow it. For that reason, I believe that legislation or a law of that character is helpful.

It has become trite to assert that we won the war because we put our prejudices and our discriminations aside in the all-out effort on the battlefield as well as behind the lines to defeat our enemies. However, this is an historic fact. We shall lose the fruits of our victory if we do not learn to be as united in peace as we were in war and as desirous of eliminating unwarranted discrimination, and I am talking about the right to work, in our peaceful pursuits as we were in the grim and stern business of bringing death and destruction to the dictators.

The Synagogue Council of America has gone on record, not only as an individual body, but in conjunction with the National Catholic Welfare group and the Federal Council of the Church of Christ in America, as being against discriminations in employment.

The Synagogue Council of America finds that the aims of the bill as expressed in paragraphs (a) and (b) of section 2 are not merely legislative but really spiritual in language and character, and it is heartening when legislation reflects the thing, after all, that this country, I believe, does stand for.

Senator SMITH. Rabbi, in the light of what I think is a very fine expression of this so-called spiritual approach in this matter of human relations, I would like to have your comments on the suggestion you have heard me make to other witnesses here with regard to the evolutionary approach to this in permitting the States to feel they might handle it on the educational basis and not wanting the arm of the Federal Government to come in to enforce it-whether that would create a better atmosphere in those States if they are permitted by legislative action to postpone the application of the Federal sanctions. Rabbi ROSENBLUM. I have heard your proposal here. I have heard the discussion. Now I must revert to being a lawyer as well as a rabbi

because we are interested in implementing an aim. Personally, I believe if your suggestion were adopted, it would vitiate the force of the bill, because it isn't local; it isn't State-wide. The right to work, we feel, is a fundamental right. We are trying to establish a principle. That is a human right that belongs to every American.

Now the Constitution recognizes there are certain areas where the Federal idea supersedes perhaps the narrower State idea. So we have given up the right to declare war and make war and other things that we know are in the Constitution. I believe we are recognizing a principle now that this fundamental right to work should not be eliminated by anyone and not restricted by anyone, any American as regards another, and for that reason, I believe that if your proposal, sir, were accepted, that while I know it is a matter perhaps of political expedi ency and would step up the process of having the initial step, the bill accepted, that in those States perhaps and areas where it might be needed most, it would have the least chance of adoption.

Senator DONNELL. You do not favor the suggestion of Senator Smith. Is that correct?

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. Yes, sir; but not from a spiritual point of view, I must say, but from every other angle.

Senator SMITH. My thought is that you may inject the wrong spirit into a certain jurisdiction if they feel that it is something being forced upon them.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. On the contrary, sir, I believe we recognize the principle of enforcing certain things. We do that during the war, when the national safety is in danger. We do not say to certain States, "You have the right to stay out because it will be enforced." We enforce it, and properly so, and I believe that the right to work is almost as important as the right to defense, that every man must be required to defend his Nation. I think it is a fundamental right that goes to the very roots of our democracy, and for that reason, sir, I sincerely believe that your suggestion might vitiate the very purpose you are trying to accomplish.

Senator ELLENDER. Rabbi, do you find much employment in New York today due to discrimination?

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. Employment due to it or lack of it?

Senator ELLENDER. No, due to it.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. You mean do many people get jobs because somebody discriminates against others?

Senator ELLENDER. No; fail to get them.
Rabbi ROSENBLUM. Fail to get jobs?
Senator ELLENDER. Yes.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. I think so, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. I read a little article last night where it said that today we have the greatest number of employees in the history of our Nation, and I know very few that are not employed. Now, as to those that are unemployed, do you know of any who are now failing to obtain work because of their religion or creed?

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. Yes, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. Will you give us the name and the employer? Rabbi ROSENBLUM. No. I can give you the source of where to go for the information.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, the information I would like to have from you is this, and I think the committee should by all means listen to it: Give us the names of the employees who have been discriminated against and the names of the employers who have failed to employ. Rabbi ROSENBLUM. I will give you the name of the agency that places people and knows that and can give you the information. I think that is as good as any.

Senator ELLENDER. Will you give it to the clerk before you leave?
Rabbi ROSENBLUM. I will be happy to state it publicly.

Senator ELLENDER. I don't want to take the time of the committee.
Rabbi ROSENBLUM. I will be glad to give it to the committee.

Senator ELLENDER. You say these things existed in New Orleans when you were there. You may have a few isolated cases there, I don't doubt that, but I am sure you will agree with me that it isn't general.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. I wouldn't know, sir, because I haven't been there since 1916 for any length of time, but I know that in the city of New York today, and there will be other witnesses that will bear it out, as a member of an inter-racial committee in Harlem of businessmen, I happen to be the only rabbi on it; there are one or two ministers, but as one who is close to the employment bureau of the Y. W. C. A., I know that now they are receiving complaints of people who were formerly employed when there was much more employment who feel they are beginning to be discriminated against solely because of their color.

Senator ELLENDER. In Harlem?

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. In New York City. That committee works in Harlem, but the employment is all over the city.

Senator DONNELL., Well, hasn't the New York statute corrected this evil?

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. They do that. That is what I am trying to bring out. When these complaints come to the New York Discrimination Committee, they begin to work on it.

Senator DONNELL. But it has not eliminated the fact that there are still many cases of discrimination, has it?

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. No. There are efforts still being made, and that is exactly the point. When employment begins to be less general, there is a feeling-there always has been that-that there are organizations who will discriminate against others; in some cases it is the Negroes, in some cases the Jews, in some cases the Italians, in some cases the Catholics. I believe that we are beginning to feel these incidents because there is a recession in employment. However, I will give the committee the names of the people who are dealing with the situation and who have the facts.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, I don't see how that can exist in the light of the fact that we have at present as the aforementioned report showed last night, 58,000,000 people employed, and that is about the limit of the number that we have for employment, because you can't have complete employment, as you know.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. There are 3,000,000 unemployable who will never be employed.

Senator IVES. May I interrupt there to point out that this just isn't a question of employment itself. It is a question of employment for the individual in line with the capabilities of the individual in

such a way that he can live up to his capabilities in the work he is doing and not be discriminated against for these reasons.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. And when these instances occur, Senator Ellender, then they are brought to the attention first of these agencies, say, the YWCA, that branch of it, and when they see the allegations sometimes a persons says, "I am discriminated against because I am a Catholic, Jew, or Negro"-if they feel there is something to it, they do go to the New York Commission on Discrimination.

Senator ELLENDER. You say that you have had a lot of work done along this line, that you have much experience. Well, now, generally speaking, would you be able to tell the committee whether or not there is more discrimination because of race or because of religion or because of ancestry?

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. In the country as a whole, first, the order would be probably race. I think racial would be first. I think national

origin would be next.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, that is race.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. Then I believe religion would come third, in my opinion.

Senator ELLENDER. When you say national origin, how far removed? Rabbi ROSENBLUM. Oh, immediately or the first generation ancestry if it is noticeable.

Senator ELLENDER. No further than the first generation, generally speaking?

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. No further than the second generation. That means the descendents of an immigrant will sometimes find difficulty if there are so-called noticeable traits of that ancestry.

Senator ELLENDER. Why should that be, have you any idea?
Rabbi ROSENBLUM. Why?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes.

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. Well, that is a different type of question which I will be glad to answer in my own personal opinion.

Senator ELLENDER. That is what I would like to know. The next question I want to ask you is why should that be because of religion? Rabbi ROSENBLUM. First of all, there are fears. All kinds of people have fears, economic fears. When there is work for all, the problem is not acute, but when there isn't enough work, when the economic system does not provide enough work for everybody, then groups begin to arrange themselves as against others in order to preserve their own ability to work or a chance to get a livelihood.

Senator ELLFNDER. Where do those groups organize themselves? Rabbi ROSENBLUM. I didn't say organize themselves. For instance, if I am a white man and there are a certain number of jobs and I feel if others come in, they will tear down the standard of wages, and so forth, unconsciously there is a grouping.

Senator ELLENDER. You mean a grouping among employers?

Rabbi ROSENBLUM. Among people as a whole, because it is true of labor as well. There is one thing the labor people may not like, but I find similar tendencies in labor, and we have been talking merely of employers. They restrict the right to work. If the right to work depends in a certain industry upon belonging to a union and a union keeps out a Negro and keeps out someone else, they are restricting the right to work, too, but it is in self-defense. It is a certain human characteristic which sometimes is carried too far.