Senator DONNELL. We will appreciate, Mr. Looney, your giving attention to that point.

STATEMENT OF RAYMOND V. LONG, DIRECTOR, VIRGINIA STATE PLANNING BOARD, RICHMOND, VA.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Long, do you have a prepared statement? Mr. LONG. No, sir; I do not.

Senator DONNELL. Will you state your name, please, sir?

Mr. LONG. Raymond V. Long.

Senator DONNELL. Where do you live?

Mr. LONG. Richmond, Va.

Senator DONNELL. What is your business?

Mr. LONG. Director of the Virginia State Planning Board.
Senator DONNELL. What is the State planning board?

Mr. LONG. It is a board appointed by the Governor of Virginia to make studies, provide information to local government, State agencies, make special studies for the Governor himself on request or any legislative body that may request special studies on social, economic problems.

Senator DONNELL. Are you appointive officers?

Mr. LONG. Elected by the board itself.

Senator DONNELL. And the board itself is appointed by the Governor of the State?

Mr. LONG. That is right.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Long, were you born in Virginia?

Mr. LONG. No; Maryland.

Senator DONNELL. What was your educational background, please, sir?

Mr. LONG. Graduate work at Columbia University; master's degree. Senator DONNELL. Master of arts?

Mr. LONG. Master of science.

Senator DONNELL. What was your preliminary collegiate work? Mr. LONG. I took my undergraduate work at Columbia also.

Senator DONNELL. You took the bachelor degree in science at Columbia University?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Then did you live in Maryland at the time that you were attending the university?

Mr. LONG. That is right.

Senator DONNELL. Did you come back to Maryland?
Mr. LONG. No.

Senator DONNELL. When did you come to Virginia?
Mr. LONG. I came to Virginia in 1914.

Senator DONNELL. In what profession did you engage from 1914 until your appointment as Virginia State planning engineer?

Mr. LONG. I was an instructor at the State teachers' college, Farmville, Va., for 4 years; then with the State department of education from 1918 to 1942 as State school architect; and from 1942 on, as director of the Virginia State planning board.

Senator DONNELL. What were your duties in each of those capacities, in Virginia-chronologically, if you please?

Mr. LONG. Well, the instructorship, at the normal college-the usual work in instruction.

Senator DONNELL. What did you instruct?

Mr. LONG. In the philosophy of education and industrial education. Senator DONNELL. Then, in your work in the next position, in the education department of the State, what did you do there?

Mr. LONG. Supervising the construction of school buildings and making plans for school building construction.

Senator DONNELL. Then, your State planning work, I take it that you have been engaged in the formulation of plans for the development of the State-wide plan?

Mr. LONG. Well, not quite that. Our major emphasis is not trying to hang down or superimpose upon local governments plans already worked out; but to try to assist local governments to work out plans for themselves.

Senator DONNELL. Have you had occasion in the course of your work to come in contact with both the white and colored labor and with employers of both white and colored labor?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. How extensive would you say has been your experience along those lines?

Mr. LONG. Rather extensive in connection with construction of school buildings; quite a bit of labor employed, both white and nonwhite.

In connection with our planning work, we work both with Negro organizations and white organizations, trying to emphasize a point that has been touched on rather lightly, and I think should receive far more important consideration in view of this contemplated legislation, and that is the economic one. I believe our problem in Virginia—and I think in the South-has a setting for this kind of thing more as an economic problem than perhaps a social one; and the social problem is one that is an outgrowth of economic difficulties. Senator DONNELL. Now, Mr. Long, would you be kind enough to proceed with your views respecting S. 984.

I will ask you first, have you read that specific bill?

Mr. LONG. I have not read the technical bill, but the summary. Senator DONNELL. You know the general philosophy of the bill and the general purposes to be effected by it?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Would you state, please, into the record, your view with respect to legislation of that type and your reasons for those views.

Mr. LONG. My personal philosophy does not permit the continued encroachment of legislation for States and localities when the States and localities are in position to do those things for themselves.

We in Virginia are strongly of the opinion that the States ought to be given an opportunity and encouraged to try to work out these problems themselves. We believe that the social implications involved in this proposed legislation, as well as the economic implications, are ones that we have been gradually correcting and that we believe we can more easily, with less dissention, work out the salvation and solution of that problem ourselves, rather than legislation coming from centralized government.

That is Virginia's philosophy, not only with regard to centralized Federal legislation but State legislation. We, as far as possible, are

trying to urge local governments to strengthen themselves through assuming larger responsibilities.

One phase of this, dealing with the economic problem-and in which we think we recognize a serious implication-is the fact that the low per capita income in Virginia is largely accounted for by the low per capita income of the Negro. That needs to be raised. They need to have new opportunities, or enlarged opportunities, or opportunities for employment that will give them every opening by which they may earn the most that their capacities will permit.

Pursuant to that end, our governor is now appointing what is known as the Virginia Advisory Council on the Virginia Economy. On that council he has appointed two Negroes, realizing that is a very important and significant part of our effort to improve our economy, which means increasing employment, providing new employment opportunities.

Senator DONNELL. What is the name of that council?

Mr. LONG. The Advisory Council on the Virginia Economy.
Senator DONNELL. Go right ahead.

Mr. LONG. I can't say what it has accomplished because it is just being organized; but there is an evidence of the fact that our government, through the leadership of our Governor, recognizes that as a problem. We are making that approach to our own solution.

Senator ELLENDER. Now, Mr. Long, that low-wage scale not only applies to colored people; there are a number of white people in Virginia that are receiving virtually the same amount as the colored people.

Mr. LONG. Quite so.

Senator ELLENDER. That is due to their lack of knowledge of jobs, jobs for which other people are better qualified, isn't that true?

Mr. LONG. Quite so. They are misplaced; not in jobs where they can exert their greatest and best capacities to yield returns.

Senator DONNELL. Do I understand that you are opposed to the bill, S. 984, as you understand it from your general knowledge of the philosophy and purpose of it, is that right?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Now, is your opposition based primarily on the fact that this is an entry by the Federal Government into this field and that it should be left either to the State governments or even to smaller subdivisions of government; or is your opposition in addition to that, based upon the proposition that it constitutes an improper interference in matters of employment and would be improper even if it were the State or the local subdivisions of the State that would work to undertake to carry out these purposes?

Mr. LONG. My objection would be to both of those at this time. If and when Virginia is ready to adopt legislation along this line, similar or somewhat related to it, as New York has seen fit to go ahead and adopt its proposal, then I think it would be quite timely for Virginia to consider on its own when and if it is ready for it.. It would be most unfortunate and most inopportune so far as sound thinking and popular opinion in Virginia goes, for this kind of legislation to be imposed or superimposed upon us.

Senator DONNELL. I am not quite clear yet as to whether you mean that you think it would be unwise that it be superimposed because it

would involve an entry by the Federal Government into a field that is purely State government, or even a matter for local jurisdiction smaller than the State; or whether your opposition to the general purpose of the bill is on other grounds; namely, that the bill involves what you think to be an improper effort to treat on subjects into which legislation should not project itself.

Mr. LONG. I think both of those. I object on the philosophy that we ought to be given an opportunity to work these things out ourselves and not have legislation superimposed on us if it is the kind that we can work out for our own salvation.

Second, I think the kind of legislation, as I understand it, that the bill proposes, would work to tear down many wholesome race relationships that have been built up in the past 10 or 15 years that are the result of the expenditure of real effort on the part of both races to try to work together and get together. So on both those terms, would object to this proposed legislation.

I

Senator ELLENDER. Mr. Long, as I understand you, whether such legislation is placed on the statute books by the Commonwealth of Virginia or by the Federal Government would, in a measure, make no difference to you. The thing is, it may cause this difficulty to which you refer, whether it is passed by the State of Virginia or the Federal Government: is that true?

Mr. LONG. Certainly; yes, sir; at this time the State of Virginia would not ratify any such legislation as this.

The point I meant to make a while ago-New York apparently has arrived at the point where it is ready for this general type of legislation. Virginia is not. We may get ready for it in the next

Senator ELLENDER. As I stated here on many occasions, New York seems to be the State that breeds such discontent among people and it may be necessary for them to have some legislation.

Mr. LONG. Maybe so.

Senator ELLENDER. And I am sure a lot of well-meaning people in New York and New Jersey, where they have such laws, are certainly not familiar with conditions in the South.

Mr. LONG. You are eminently correct on that, Senator.

Senator ELLENDER. Surely.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Long, are you able to give us an opinion as a result of coming in contact with people from other States, from whom you have derived knowledge as to their opinions touching legislation of this type?

Mr. LONG. Generally speaking, yes. I had opportunity

Senator DONNELL. Över how wide an area and how many people, would you estimate?

Mr. LONG. Over the United States. I happen to be intimately associated with a national organization and I have been for some time. Senator DONNELL. What organization?

Mr. LONG. The National Association of State Planning and Development Agencies.

Senator DONNELL. What observations have you had in connection with that association and with how many persons-and I take it that in response to my question about the area, it would be throughout the United States. Is that your answer?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Will you tell us, please, how many people, substantially, with whom you have come in contact or heard expressions of opinions and what have you arrived at in your own mind as the consensus of opinion in the States from which you have heard opinions emanating?

Mr. LONG. This particular group that I referred to I think is predominantly of the opinion that we want less centralized legislation and more encouragement, more service, advisory and consultative help, from Washington, and less regulation.

Senator DONNELL. What about the other point? You have touched on the centralization-Federal legislation, in other words, as against State legislation. What, if anything, have you learned from other States through your contacts as to the opinion of the wisdom of this type of legislation, whether it be instituted by the Federal Government or by the State?

Mr. LONG. Well, that is more particularly limited to the so-called 11 Southeastern States, the States so listed in the census. We have an organization known as the Southeastern Region, of these agencies who get together frequently and interchange thinking on these problems, the social implications as well as the economic. I have outlined it for Virginia and I thing it is generally true for all 11 of the Southeastern States.

Senator DONNELL. You think the consensus of opinion, as you get it-as I understand from your testimony-is throughout the 11 Southeastern States, is it?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. The 11 States; that it would be unwise to have legislation of this type, even if that legislation were passed by State legislatures as distinct from Congress; is that right?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. I don't want to suggest anything to you that is not correct as an interpretation of your testimony, but that is what I understood it to be; is that correct?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Now, is there anything further, Mr. Long, that you have to present to us?

Mr. LONG. I think not, sir. I think that covers it, generally.
Senator DONNELL. Senator Ellender?

Senator ELLENDER. Well, Mr. Long, have you come in contact with any of the businesses in Virginia of the character described by the preceding witness, Mr. Saunders?

Mr. LONG. In what way?

Senator ELLENDER. Well, in demonstrating to the committee, if you can, the cordial relationships that do exist at the present time in these businesses and the effect that the passage of this legislation would have to disrupt these cordial relationships.

Mr. LONG. Well, this may be a case in point. The building trades in Virginia have, for a good many years, been employing both Negroes and whites-plasterers; we have crews of Negro plasterers that work with crews of carpenters, not at the same time because the plasterers are working at a different time, but we don't have a mingling of Negroes and white plasterers. We may have a white plasterer and his crew or a Negro plasterer and his crew.