Senator DONNELL. Do you know what its membership is, approximately?

Dr. BOYD. I will appeal to my colleague, Dr. Lee.

Dr. LEE. Close to a million.

Dr. BOYD (continuing) :

Whereas discrimination in employment because of race, creed, or national origin is one of the great moral issues before our Nation today; and

Whereas the right of a worker to be employed and paid solely on the basis of his character and ability is so clear, just, and Christian that it should be protected by appropriate legislation; and

Whereas this has clearly been recognized in legislation passed recently in New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Connecticut: Therefore be it

Resolved, That the Northern Baptist Convention urge the enactment of legislation designed to secure these objectives by other States' legislatures and their serious consideration by the Congress of the United States.

Senator ELLENDER. Doctor, this Northern Baptist Convention; is that composed of all colors, whites and blacks?

Dr. BOYD. Again I will have to appeal. I am not sure, not being a member of that constituency. I am sure they do.

Senator DONNELL. Could Dr. Lee assist you?

Dr. LEE. The Northern Baptist Convention is predominantly a white convention. There are Negro members.

Senator ELLENDER. To what extent do you practice segregation? Dr. LEE. I don't know whether the question is apropos and I don't know whether I can answer that.

Senator ELLENDER. If you don't care to answer that you are not required to do so. I just thought maybe you knew.

Senator DONNELL. What proportion of the membership is white and what proportion is colored?

Dr. LEE. I am sorry, sir. He asked to what extent did they segregate.

Senator ELLENDER. To what extent do you practice segregation? Dr. LEE. Well, I think that is a rather relative question. You can't say to what extent any group practices segregation.

Senator ELLENDER. I know some who don't practice it at all, and I am just wondering if you have in your group of churches any that will not admit the colored people.

Dr. LEE. Within my knowledge, I do not know of any that will not admit colored people. Now, if you want the number of people, I think predominantly the largest proportion of the membership is white.

Senator ELLENDER. I am not asking for the number. I was just trying to determine the extent to which you practiced segregation or you advocated it.

Dr. LEE. Well, Mr. Chairman, again, when you asked me that, you asked me to tell the practices of thousands of separate churches, and naturally it is impossible for me to tell you the practices of thousands of separate churches on segregation. I can say that the Northern Baptist Convention is on record counseling all of its churches not to practice segregation, but now to what extent each individual local church does or does not, I am not competent to

answer.

Senator DONNELL. Doctor, while you are on your feet, of the number of the 1,000,000 members of the Northern Baptist convention, how many of those are white and how many colored?

Dr. LEE. I would say the larger portion of the members are white; I would say beyond 900,000. The largest group of Baptists in America would be the National Baptist Convention, which is a Negro

convention.

Senator DONNELL. But of the Northern Baptist Convention, which I understand consists of about a million, you think over 900,000 are white, which means approximately less than 100,000 are colored. Is that right?

Dr. LEE. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. Does the National Baptist Convention belong to this council?

Dr. LEE. Yes; it does, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. And you say that that convention constitutes mostly colored?

Dr. LEE. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. Or all colored?

Dr. LEE. All colored.

Senator ELLENDER. What is the membership of that convention? Dr. LEE. I would think, sir, about 4,000,000.

Senator ELLENDER. Are there any other Baptist conventions or any other Baptist churches that don't belong to either the National or the Northern Baptist Convention?

Dr. LEE. Yes; there are two groups. There are the Southern Baptist Convention, which is not a member of the Federal Council of Churches, and there is another Negro group called the National Baptist Convention Unincorporated, which is a smaller group and does not belong to the Federal Council.

Senator ELLENDER. You may not be able to answer this question and it may not be apropos, but can you tell me why it is that you have so many conventions among the Baptists? [Laughter.]

Senator DONNELL. As compared to the Presbyterians.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, all right, as compared to the Presbyterians or as compared to the Methodists. Can you answer the question? Dr. LEE. I think that that question is not apropos, sir.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, the chairman is going to decide that.
Dr. LEE. I can't answer that.

Senator ELLENDER. You say you can?

Dr. LEE. I would rather not.

Senator DONNELL. Can you, Doctor?
Dr. LEE. Yes, I can.

Senator DONNELL. We would like for you to go ahead and answer that.

Dr. LEE. Briefly, I would say in the first place there were the splits. Your major split was just at the Civil War, and it was probably over the slavery issue. At that time, there were two conventions formed. the Northern Baptist Convention and the Southern Baptist Convention. Why the split in the Negro conventions I am not quite clear. I do believe that there were difficulties possibly about belief and a separate convention was set up. Now I think that, in short, is the difference. These, incidentally, were logical beliefs.

Senator ELLENDER. Now, as I understand it, you have the Northern Baptist Convention, with a million, of whom you said around 900,000 are whites.

Dr. LEE. That is an approximation.

Senator ELLENDER. Then you have the National, which has a membership of 4,000,000, all of whom are colored. Then you have the Southern-what is the name of it?

Dr. LEE. Southern Baptist Convention.
Senator ELLENDER. What is the number?

Dr. LEE. I don't know what its constituency is. It is larger than the Northern. That is all white.

Senator ELLENDER. Any colored in them?

Dr. LEE. No. That is where they practice segregation.

Senator ELLENDER. I knew that. [Laughter.] How about the other?

Dr. LEE. That is all colored.

Senator ELLENDER. Where is that convention located?

Dr. LEE. They have churches that are located throughout the country, largely in the Southwest, I would say.

Senator ELLENDER. Is that entirely colored or mixed?

Dr. LEE. That is entirely colored.

Senator DONNELL. Proceed, Dr. Boyd.

Dr. BOYD. The general council of the Congregational Christian Church met at Grinnell, Iowa, June 18-25, 1946, and adopted the following statement.

Senator DONNELL. What is the approximate membership of the Congregational Christian Church?

Dr. BOYD. I haven't brought the yearbook of the churches along with me. I would say over a million.

Senator SMITH. Is that the church we know as the Congregational Church?

Dr. BOYD. Yes. It was combined a few years ago.

Senator SMITH. There is no congregational title in any other group, is there?

Dr. BOYD. Not that I know of.

Senator ELLENDER. Does that 1,000,000 consist of the entire membership of that church?

Dr. BOYD. Yes. I am approximating, Senator.

Senator IVES. I think it is well over a million.

Senator ELLENDER. But it has one council, hasn't it?

Dr. BOYD. That is right.

Senator ELLENDER. Are there any other denominations of the 25 that belong to your council that have so many members that they are divided into certain councils as are the Baptists?

Dr. BOYD. No. I think all the denominations composed in the Federal Council have a pretty closely knit organization and are more centralized than our Baptist brethren who follow frequently, one might say, the congregational plan of organization or government plan of organization.

Senator ELLENDER. I believe you have a few councils in the Methodists, haven't you?

Dr. BOYD. No. If I am not mistaken, Senator Ellender, I am not an expert on ecclesiastical organization and politics, but I think I am right on this, that the general conference of the Methodist Church speaks authoritatively for the whole of Methodism, just as the general assembly of either the northern or southern Presbyterian Church speaks for their denomination, if that is what you mean.

Senator ELLENDER. That is because it has but one council.

Dr. BOYD. That is right.

Senator ELLENDER. Now you cannot apply that same rule to the full councils that deal with the Baptist denominations, can you?

of

Dr. BOYD. I may be wrong in this, and again, sir, I must state clearly that I am not an expert. I mean you take me a wee bit out my field. I think I can say that when the Northern Convention of the Baptist Church and the Southern Convention or Convention of the Southern Baptist Church meet, I imagine the action taken jointly there by their messengers, I think, they are called, or delegates or deputies or what have you-whether it is actually binding on each individual Baptist congregation I cannot answer, if that is what you mean.

Senator ELLENDER. It may be binding to some extent on the two that you just mentioned, but would it be on the four?

Dr. BOYD. No.

Senator DONNELL. You spoke of the Methodist Church. Is the Methodist Church a member of the Federal Council of the Churches of Christ in America?

Dr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. What is the membership of the Methodist Church?

Dr. BOYD. I think it is 8,000,000 now.

Senator DONNELL. Was it one of the churches to which you addressed this telegram?

Dr. BOYD. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. And you received no answer?

Dr. BOYD. Not as yet, but they are all with us, though.

Senator DONNELL. Bishop Oxnam back in 1944 spoke as you have indicated here, and he is bishop of the Methodist Church, is he not? Dr. BoYD. Yes; and former president of the Federal Council. Senator ELLENDER. Do you know if the entire membership of the Methodist Church is incorporated in one council or two or more? Dr. BOYD. Well, over-all is the general conference. They are divided, as I think, into districts. I mean there is a New York district. They used to be called conferences. I understand they call themselves districts now. A good Methodist here can correct me, but they are divided into districts and those districts are brought together by the general conference, which is the council of bishops. What their legislative authority or power is I don't know, but I know that all of those districts or conferences or what have you are bound together by the one general council.

Senator DONNELL. Have you any idea why you didn't get a response to that telegram from the Methodist Church?

Dr. BOYD. No. They have so many fieldmen. We have tried to contact the executive on the national level, and he might have been out. That is the only answer I can give you.

Senator DONNELL. It has been 3 weeks since that wire was sent.
Dr. BOYD. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. Do you know the extent to which the Methodist Church or Conference practices segregation?

Dr. BOYD. I could not answer that competently, sir. I could only speak for my own denomination. I could not answer that; I would not be competent to.

Senator ELLENDER. Let me ask about your denomination, the one that you belong to.

Dr. BOYD. The Protestant Episcopal Church?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes. Is the whole church represented by one council?

Dr. BOYD. By the general convention; yes, sir. We represent all of the Episcopal churches.

Senator ELLENDER. To what extent does the Episcopal Church practice segregation?

Dr. BOYD. It depends largely, sir, upon the section of the country.
Senator ELLENDER. Do you believe in that?

Dr. BOYD. I do not believe in segregation personally.
Senator ELLENDER. You do or you don't?

Dr. BOYD. No.

Senator ELLENDER. Where is your church located?

Dr. BOYD. I haven't a church now, but my last church was in Richmond, Va. I just said it depends upon the section of the country. It is hard to answer you specifically. That is personal. That is not speaking for the whole of the Federal Council.

Senator ELLENDER. What church do you now attend?

Dr. BOYD. I attend Grace Episcopal Church in Plainfield, N. J. I am on the staff. I am not a local pastor now.

Senator ELLENDER. Do they practice segregation in that church? Dr. BOYD. No. There are Negro members in that church. Senator ELLENDER. To what extent?

Dr. BOYD. Not many.

Senator ELLENDER. Do you know of any other Episcopal church in New Jersey where they practice segregation?

Dr. BOYD. I have only been there 212 years, and I am not that familiar with New Jersey.

Senator ELLENDER. I see. Before you went to New Jersey you were in Richmond?

Dr. BOYD. Yes, sir.

Senator SMITH. I can say for the record, Mr. Chairman, that I don't know of any church in New Jersey that practices segregation of any denomination.

Senator IVES. The same goes for New York.

Senator DONNELL. Proceed now.

Dr. BOYD (reading):

Protection from discrimination in employment. Discrimination in employment because of race, creed, or national origin is one of the great moral issues before the Nation today. It threatens the basic economic rights of many individuals. We recognize that the immediate postwar period has brought with it increasing tensions between racial and religious groups in our country, and that reduction in employment will tend to work a special hardship on Negro and other minority groups.

We therefore reaffirm our support of legislation constituting permanent fair employment practices commissions for States and Nation such as will afford all citizens, regardless of race, creed, color, or national origin, equal opportunity to useful, adequately remunerative employment.

The General Synod of the Evangelical and Reformed Church met at York, Pa., in 1944 and adopted a resolution which we quote in part. Senator DONNELL. What is the approximate membership of that? Dr. BOYD. I think they are around 300,000, as a guess.