legislation, I am representing the position of my church. The Roman Catholic Church in the United States, through its official body, the National Catholic Welfare Conference, has spoken unequivocally in favor of fair employment practices legislation.

In July 1946 the social action department of the National Catholic Welfare Conference issued a statement, which reads in part:

Christian moral teaching requires every employer to maintain and enforce nondiscriminatory policies in hiring, upgrading, and discharge. In addition, it requires each employer not only to cease opposition to the enactment of Federal and State FEPC laws, but to use his influence in his association and with his fellow employers to secure the passage and assist in the enforcement of such

statutes.

Senator ELLENDER. Will you state for the record what the National Catholic Welfare Conference is?

Father CARDINAL. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. What is its membership; how it is maintained; how often it meets?

Father CARDINAL. The bishops of the United States meet once a year in November, and this is the executive committee of the bishops, and this National Catholic Welfare group are appointed by the bishops. Senator DONNELL. That is the group of which Father McManus is quite an outstanding member.

Father CARDINAL. He represents the educational features; yes. This is the executive committee of bishops and it functions in different fields. They have a committee on education, committee on social matters, and so forth.

Senator ELLENDER. Do they have representation from all over the country?

Father CARDINAL. No. Their headquarters are here in the city. Senator ELLENDER. I know; but is the conference composed of bishops from all over the country?

Father CARDINAL. Oh, yes. The constituents are from different parts of the United States.

Senator ELLENDER. How many Catholics does that represent?

Father CARDINAL. Well, in the field of statistics, of course, we always get into argument, but I think there are 23,000,000 Catholics in the United States.

Senator ELLENDER. Does this conference represent all of the Catholics in the United States?

Father CARDINAL. All the Roman Catholics.

Senator DONNELL. Father, that doesn't mean that all the members of the church necessarily share these views. Each man or woman has a right to his or her own individual views; is that right?

Father CARDINAL. That is true. Bishop Sheil is speaking for Bishop Sheil; no one else.

Senator ELLENDER. And Archbishop Rommel speaks for himself in the South.

Father CARDINAL. That is right.

Senator ELLENDER. Is there a vote taken? For instance, you have read a statement just now. Does that represent the majority view of that conference or is it the view of a few?

Father CARDINAL. This represents the view of the few, of the executive committee of the bishops.

Senator ELLENDER. And that is composed of how many people?

Father CARDINAL. Fifteen.

Senator ELLENDER. How are they selected?

Father CARDINAL. By the bishops themselves.

Senator ELLENDER. Are they chosen from all over the country? Father CARDINAL. Yes. Usually they try to have each geographical area represented.

Senator DONNELL. Was this particular action unanimous, Father, do you know, or was it a majority?

Father CARDINAL. No; it wasn't. I am not speaking now, I want to make it clear, for the bishops of the United States. I haven't been authorized to come here and speak for the bishops.

Senator ELLENDER. What you have read from just now-that is, I suppose, what Senator Donnell had in mind-was that a unanimous view of the 15 bishops?

Father CARDINAL. No, it wasn't. Of course, it was a view which was presented on the 1946 question, not this present bill.

Senator ELLENDER. Do you know what the vote was on that statement?

Father CARDINAL. Well, it wasn't a complete assent.

Senator ELLENDER. I see. Do you know what percentage agreed to it and what percentage did not?

Father CARDINAL. It was a majority vote.

Senator DONNELL. Do you mean it was just a majority or was it considerably more than just a majority? In other words, Do you know how many of the 15 members voted for it?

Father CARDINAL. I don't know the exact number, no; but the fact that the National Catholic Welfare Conference issued a statement indicates that it was the predominant view of the majority group. I don't think it would be possible to get a copy of the vote taken.

Senator DONNELL. Proceed, Father.

Father CARDINAL The first national director of FEPC is today a bishop of the Roman Catholic Church. That is Bishop Haas. Bishop Haas was appointed by President Roosevelt.

Senator ELLENDER. Where is he from?

Father CARDINAL. He was a professor in Catholic University here in the city.

Senator ELLENDER. How long did he serve?

Father CARDINAL. Possibly 2 years. Then he was appointed bishop of Grand Rapids, Mich. It is unfortunate indeed that Bishop Haas isn't here to testify. It would be eminently worth while to have his testimony because of his experience with the FEPC bill here in Washington.

Senator DONNELL. Am I to understand that he was the first chairman of that Commission?

Father CARDINAL. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. I thought that is what you said.

Father CARDINAL. I am proud of the fact that my fellow members of the Catholic hierarchy are outspokenly active on behalf of fair employment practices legislation. In view of the unmistakable Catholic support for such legislation the charge of Communist inspiration is ridiculous.

As a bishop of the Catholic Church, my prime concern is leading men to God. We all know only too well how difficult it is to live in accord with the voice of conscience. The church knows very well that it is difficult at best to preach justice and charity and purity to men who are subjected to an endless round of frustrations.

The path of eternal salvation is not easy; but how much more difficult is the way of those disenfranchised citizens whose struggle for salvation must be made against almost insuperable obstacles? As a member of a minority group, I have come face to face with the ugly specter of bigotry and discrimination. Over the course of years the Catholic Youth Organization has received innumerable reports from Catholics and others of job discrimination based solely on the fact that the applicant belonged to a certain religion, race, or national group.

Such economic discrimination is immoral; it is clearly sinful. How long are we expected to sit by while these children of God find their paths blocked at every point by the forces of bigotry and discrimination?

Senator ELLENDER. Did he classify himself as being in a minority group?

Father CARDINAL. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. With 23,000,000?

Father CARDINAL. Yes; I think it is still a minority in a country wherethe population is 140,000,000.

Senator DONNELL. Is there any other church organization in the United States as large as that 23,000,000? I mean any denomination! Father CARDINAL. It is very difficult answering that because, you see, the Protestants number, I suppose, much more than that. You take all the Protestants together. There are no one Protestant group that numbers that. You have heard the testimony of the gentleman preceding me who said the Methodists number 8,000,000, and so forth. If you add all these numbers, they far outnumber us.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, according to that definition or idea of view of a minority, why, you have no majority groups in the country, then; it is all minority. Is that true?

Father CARDINAL. The Protestants claim to be a majority group. That claim has been made time and time again.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, with combinations, they certainly are the majority of the people in the country. But I certainly can't visualize the Catholics being classed a minority group.

Father CARDINAL. Well, statistically

Senator ELLENDER. Well, statistically or otherwise.

Senator DONNELL. May I read into the record this information which the clerk of the committee, Mr. Rodgers, has handed to me: Bishop Haas was asked to appear but could not come, the reason being prior appointments at commencement exercises at various Catholic schools throughout the country.

I am sure we would be very happy to have the bishop here if he could still come. I can assure you that we would be very glad to make a place for him on the program.

Father CARDINAL. Thank you very much. May I continue?
Senator DONNELL. Certainly.

Father CARDINAL. We Americans cannot afford discrimination of any kind. There is no place for it in our way of life.

Senator DONNELL. Pardon me, Father. I take it you are using the word "minority" there not in the sense that the Catholic Church is a very small minute portion of the population, but that it does not contain an absolute majority of all the people of our country, and that is all you mean by the term "minority group," is it not?

Father CARDINAL. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. In other words, say we have 140,000,000. There would have to be seventy million and one in order to be a majority, and the Catholic organization is approximately a third of that amount. Is that right?

Father CARDINAL. It is not a third. It is about a fifth.

Senator DONNELL. Didn't you say 24,000,000?

Father CARDINAL. Twenty-three million out of one hundred and forty million would be a fifth, would it not?

Senator DONNELL. Well, a little less than that, about a sixth, between a sixth and a seventh, yes; but I was referring to the fact that it is somewhere in the neighborhood of a third of a majority. That is about what it is as I have roughly figured it in my head.

Father CARDINAL. Of course, I think if you look at the history of this whole thing, you would find that at one time we were a much smaller group, and when we were smaller, we suffered more than we do now.

Senator ELLENDER. But the population of our country was much smaller, too.

Father CARDINAL. Proportionately we were much smaller than that. Senator ELLENDER. But your percentage of the entire population has been rather equal or on a constant basis, has it not?

Father CARDINAL. I think so.

Senator DONNELL. Proceed, Father.

Father CARDINAL. There is no place for it in our way of life. And there is little time for legal disputes, when rampant injustice makes a mockery of the purpose of our Government: "To promote the general welfare." And, most certainly, there is no place in these august halls for the petty princes of privilege, the sleazy hirelings of unscrupulous pressure groups who by their threats and promises attempt to influence the votes of our legislators against fair employment laws. This despicable crowd with all its loathsome baggage should, like the moneychangers in the temple, be driven from your midst.

Senator DONNELL. Do you know to whom the bishop is referring there, Father? Do you have any knowledge of that?

Father CARDINAL. Well, no. I don't know.

Senator DONNELL. I am saying this in all frankness. I don't know to whom he is referring. I have no knowledge of that, and I thought if you were informed, we would like to have that information.

Father CARDINAL. I am sorry the bishop isn't here to explain his own

statement.

Senator DONNELL. And you do not know what he means by this, to what particular group it is that he refers?

I

Father CARDINAL. I suppose those who might be termed the peddlers of prejudice.

Senator ELLENDER. Do you think that whoever opposes that viewpoint are peddlers of prejudice?

Father CARDINAL. Well, I think in the over-all record, we could stigmatize them as such. We have a book written by Gustaf Meyers, A Story of Bigotry in the United States; it is 500 pages long. Mr. Meyers made a very, very searching analysis of this problem in the United States and he found an amazing amount of prejudice, and, of course, this has been disseminated by individuals, Ku Klux Klan and other similar organizations-this group that is functioning in Georgia just recently. We have had too many organizations of this kind, and I suppose that it is to these people that the bishop refers.

Senator ELLENDER. Well, as a matter of fact, we have a lot of Catholics who are somewhat bigoted in their own religion, aren't they? They believe their own religion is the only true religion.

Father CARDINAL. Yes; but I wouldn't call that bigotry any more than I would in saying that two and two makes four. I don't know if that has anything to do with the question, but when I say I am quite sure of the validity of my own religion and when a Catholic is sure of his religion, I hardly subscribe to the statement that that is bigotry because he has a firmness of conscience that his is the right religion. Senator SMITH. As long as you permit another fellow to have the same conviction that his religion is right, you don't object to that.

Father CARDINAL. Well, I distinguish between toleration and tolerance. I can no more agree with the Protestant who says that his religion is right than I can agree with a mathematician who says that' two and two make five, but I tolerate the Protestant for believing in that, but I can't tolerate him saying, and I use the world "tolerate" in the broad sense, that his religion is right. I couldn't hold the two propositions. I couldn't hold that my religion is right and

Senator SMITH. Not that he is right, but he has a right to his own opinion and own judgment without being burned at the stake. That is approximately correct, isn't it?

Father CARDINAL. Yes.

Senator ELLENDER. Father, what I had in mind was bigotry among either Protestants or Catholics. Each has so much belief in his own religion that he feels that the fellow who belongs to the other religion goes to Hades when he dies. Is that true? Where religion is so deeply ingrained belief is eminent, and yet you wouldn't call that being bigoted.

Father CARDINAL. Well, you would have to define bigotry.

Senator ELLENDER. You mentioned it a while ago. That is why I am raising the question.

Father CARDINAL. There is only one Judge and He is the one that has the job of assigning people to the various parkings of the next world. [Laughter.]

Senator DONNELL. Proceed, Father.

Father CARDINAL. It is the solemn duty of our legislators to consider first the true issues involved in fair employment practices. In so doing, each of them will realize that the human issues, the denial of full citizenship to millions of our people, far outweigh the selfish interests of pressure groups. I hope this bill will become law with the greatest possible speed.

Senator ELLENDER. Father, I wanted to pursue a line of questions that I started a moment ago. I asked you whether or not you had personal knowledge of cases in which there was discrimination practiced in Chicago, or wherever it was.