know you must be specific and point out the exact facts and cover them all. It is a very difficult process.

Mr. SIROVICH. I did not hear the beginning of your testimony. Will you just give me the high spots?

Mr. HORTON. The high spot is that it is very important to find a way to provide for more equitable distribution of the routes between the various ports. At the present time on the North Atlantic ports they are largely concentrated in New York, which has 17 routes. Boston has 2, Baltimore has 2, Norfolk has 1, and Philidelphia has

none.

Mr. SIROVICH. Are the facilities for your port as good as they are in these ports that you have mentioned?

Mr. HORTON. Oh, yes, I think so. We all have good facilities. Mr. SIROVICH. A good harbor in Philadelphia?

Mr. HORTON. Yes.

Mr. SIROVICH. Are those facilities sufficient to accomodate the large ships which would want to go in there?

Mr. HORTON. Oh, yes. Those ships come in there but they do not sail direct.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that not largely due to the fact that these other gentlemen got busy and made application for allocation of ships? Mr. HORTON. I think that is largely the case, sir.

Mr. SIROVICH. And started on that business, while the other ports were out of step on it?

Mr. HORTON. But for the last 4 years we have been prepared to do the same thing but have not been able to.

Mr. SIROVICH. I have heard considerable complaint from the Hampton Roads area, and yet

Mr. HORTON (interposing). Well, they have the Baltimore Mail line. It comes in there and gives a good service.

Mr. SIROVICH. The Baltimore Mail people got together and organized a company and got an allocation of ships?

Mr. HORTON. Yes. We have the Philadelphia Mail also, but we cannot get a contract at the present time.

Mr. CULKIN. Of course, you agree, Mr. Witness, that the best routes, the most convenient to the shipper, the less hazardous routes, are the routes that will inevitably be followed? Isn't that true? Mr. HORTON. Oh, yes; that is true.

Mr. CULKIN. Those are the determining factors in the use of any port?

Mr. HORTON. Yes.

Mr. SIROVICH. Has the Government in operation any route today? Mr. HORTON. I believe the America-France Line is still in the hands of the Government.

Mr. SIROVICH. How many ships are involved there?

Mr. HORTON. I could not tell you.

The CHAIRMAN. The Hampton Roads Line.

Mr. HORTON. The America-Hampton Roads, the America-Hampton Roads Oriole combination, and the America-France. The CHAIRMAN. The Yankee was combined, too?

Mr. HORTON. Yes.

Mr. SIROVICH. Can we not get a private operator that will take these lines over so as not to have the Government in competition with private industry?

V- HORTON I think you might find some under suitable arrangeto that might do that.

↑ „e CHATUMAN. As a matter of fact, the American-France trouble over the Baltimore Mail, did it not?

Mr Horton. I think so.

ibe CHAIRMAN. And after they were put in and given certain ships was some question arose?

M- HORTON. There is a very strong competition between the two. The CHAIRMAN. I know the Hampton Roads Line were for years g to purchase their ships and get a mail contract.

M HORTON. Yes.

The Chairman. That the terms were all agreed on, and for some which I have never known they were never able to get it.

Mr HORTON. No.

Mr SIROVICH. Would they be still willing to get it?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; they would be willing, and have been all

but now they cannot work and get mail contracts because the ething has fallen down. I think the gentleman from Philadel ran up against the same situation.

HORTON. Yes.

* CHAIRMAN. Just before the change of administration an appli was made by the Philadelphia line for an allocation of ships for an ocean-mail contract.

HORTON. Yes.

CHAIRMAN That action was taken about the time that the investigating committee introduced its resolutions, and every

it down on the granting of any more ocean-mail contracts. HORTON. That is it exactly.

CHATIMAN That is my recollection, that they advertised and were put in

M HORTON That is right. The whole thing took something 1 months, I think.

Mr Sovic. Mr. Chairman, while we are on that subject, may I st ask the gentleman to be kind enough to give me his opinion on

Yesterday morning Judge Crowley stated that more detailed rmation relative to some of the broad statements in the Postzaster General's letter was available in the Post Office Department. I a.me he referred to the individual reports of each mail contract at are mentioned two or three times in the Postmaster General's

The Postmaster General's letter states that the transcript of evidece taken in his recent hearings comprises some 34,000 pages. This

stes a thorough series of hearings, and, of course, it would be impete for this committee to digest 34,000 pages in any short length

li- wever, it seems to me that if the 34,000 pages of testimony have more or less condensed into individual reports as indicated by tre Fostmaster General and by the witness, Judge Crowley, this et. I. ittee should request the Postmaster General to furnish copies od rame reports and they should be printed as part of this record. it a; pears that a thorough understanding of past evils must be had we are to make any progress toward their elimination. The Presistates that certain abuses and practices should and must be

I suggest that this committee should avail itself of informa

tion relative to the nature of the abuses referred to by the President, and if it is possible, Mr. Chairman, to get an abbreviated statement about it, I think we ought to have it so as to know how to go about this.

The CHAIRMAN. We will consider that in executive session. There may be some of those things before the President for consideration on the question of cancelation, and there may be some question as to how far they ought to go into the record. I think we had better consider that a little more carefully in executive session. They are available for the benefit of the committee in its deliberations.

Has Mr. Jenkins come in? I have been asked to hear him. Captain Delaney?

Mr. Moran?

Mr. CONWAY. Mr. Moran has left town. I would like to go on, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. All right; we will be very glad to hear you. Will he be back?

Mr. CONWAY. No. Mr. Moran has asked me to speak for him, because we are going to speak along the same lines.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. Your name was next. I was just going to call you.

STATEMENT OF JAMES G. CONWAY, PRESIDENT OF THE ATLANTIC COAST AND GULF OF MEXICO TOWBOAT ASSOCIATION, NEW YORK CITY

Mr. CONWAY. James G. Conway, 17 Battery Place, president of the Atlantic Coast and Gulf of Mexico Towboat Association.

Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, there appears in the record in the Postmaster General's report on page 11, the second paragraph, under Operations Under Mail Contracts, a statement which reads in part:

Towboat companies, and supply companies, thus freezing out independent firms.

The CHAIRMAN. How does the paragraph read?
Mr. CONWAY. The paragraph states:

The liberal treatment accorded to the operators

And so on and so forth.

Many of them

have done certain things, and

paid high salaries and excessive dividends. In order to pipe these funds away from the mail contracting company, they have organized holding companies, operating companies, terminal companies, agency companies, stevedoring companies, repair companies, towboat companies, and supply companies, thus freezing out independent firms.

The CHAIRMAN. We will be very glad to hear you on that, sir. Mr. CONWAY. I have no knowledge personally of any such practice, but it would seem to me that the Postmaster General has some ground for the statement contained in this, and if that is true, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, in the future administration of any mail contracts or subsidy, I request that proper methods should be set up to protect those of us in the towboat business, who have invested our money and are endeavoring to run these towboats

62.rs, so that we may be protected from the competition that must r..v arise if such a thing as contained in the i ostmaster Gen

statement is true.

at is a I have to say.

T. CHAIRMAN. I think the Black hearing pretty well developed arist that was true in some sections, especially under the sstem that ta.sed before the award of mail contracts. I do not know how far tre since they awarded mail contracts, but it is my recollection at there was evidence before the Black committee, and I have read ter part of their testimony, that when they were receiving a psum many of them organized stevedoring companies and tow"at cut paties and other companies of that kind, for which they : very high wages and, of course, reduced the profit to the steampany and increased the lump-sum compensation which they e receiving for running these companies. I think it was someof that Kind.

CHIKIN Have the independent operators of these various the tow boat companies, and such activities, at present t faciuties to handle the situation?

CONWAY Yes, sir

CUTKIN You are in New York City, are you not?

CONWAY Yes, sir.

NT CULMIN So that the introduction of these subsidiaries, in 1 created by the Government, you read as unfair competition?

N • SIROVICH. As I read this paragraph it states:

OPERATIONS UNDER MAIL CONTRACTS

ens treatment accorded to the operators under the occan-mail contracts tevi in mich waste and extravagar ee. Too many of the contractors ertoi t'ese grants or subsidies, or by whatever name this aid may be

ཆ

.

that sound shippig operations. Many of them have en ploved i spæ cal representatives at er ormous fees They have paid high excessive divior: da In order to pipe these funds away from the mail eompany, they have organized holding companies, operating comta” tatai comħanies, towboat companies, and supply companies, thus ut dependent frms.

I that night?

CONWAY That is the statement.

Mr SROVICH. Any marine organization who is getting a subsidy the Government has a perfect right to do that. You are only

2, as I understand it, to any merchant marine company that 24 **ing a Government subsidy operating in any other division or vent that is foreign to their work; is that right?

Mr CONWAY. I have no objection, Mr. Sirovich, if a company does get a mail contract or a subsidy and they feel that they can run their szess by buying their own towboats and using them in the operaLa of docking and undocking and the lighterage facilities and **stions necessary to carry out the conduct of that ship. I have no

on to that. My organization has no objection to it. Howe we do not want those people to get out in open competition s who have invested our own money and who enjoy no subsidy. Ter can conduct the operation of that ship with those towboats, but antet them get into competitive business with us.

Mr. SIROVICH. In other words, let me see if I get you right: It is your theory that if any of these merchant marine organizations that are getting a governmental subsidy should utilize that subsidy for whatever purpose they want for their own shipping interest, without operating those tugboats and competing with you private and other operators?

Mr. CONWAY. Exactly. That is all, gentlemen.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you read the recommendations of the interdepartmental committee? Those recommendations begin on page 19, and it is my recollection, although I would not state it as a fact, that the interdepartmenal committee suggested that they should be separated from these affiliated concerns.

Mr. CONWAY. I have not read that, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. I am satisfied that was given consideration by the interdepartmental committee. What I probably had in mind was recommendation no. 8 on page 38 here:

The committee feels that the Secretary of Commerce should have the same authority to require reports to be made by companies engaged in the business of chartering, or managing, or furnishing stevedoring services, as he now has with respect to steamship operating companies.

Mr. CULKIN. You have no quarrel with them going out and doing business in their own line, but do object to going out in competition with you in the open field?

Mr. CONWAY. Yes, sir; that is all, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. The CHAIRMAN. Is Mr. Haddock here?

Mr. HADDOCK. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to go on now?

Mr. HADDOCK. Yes.

STATEMENT OF HOYT S. HADDOCK, PRESIDENT OF THE AMERICAN RADIO TELEGRAPHISTS ASSOCIATION, NEW YORK CITY

The CHAIRMAN. Give your name and organization to the reporter, please.

Mr. HADDOCK. Hoyt S. Haddock, president of the American Radio Telegraphists Association, 10 Bridge Street, New York.

Mr. Chairman and Congressmen, what I have to say will deal almost entirely with the interdepartmental recommendations made to the President, and in referring to these recommendationsThe CHAIRMAN. That is, the interdepartmental?

Mr. HADDOCK. Yes, sir; the interdepartmental recommendationson page 22 of the pamphlet which you have before you, our views coincide with the views set out in this report, subparagraph 1 of recommendation no. 6.

In subparagraph 2 we differ with this committee, and insofar as the last sentence of that paragraph is concerned, which reads:

In determining the amount to be paid as an operating subsidy, consideration should be given to the possibility of a substitution in part for crews' wages by an allowance to be paid to said personnel as members of the United States Merchant Marine Naval Reserve.

Mr. CULKIN. Where are you reading?

Mr. HADDOCK. Page 22.

Mr. CULKIN. Subparagraph 2, you say?

Mr. HADDOCK. Yes, sir; the last sentence in there.