M: WITCH. Do foreign subsidies, paid by foreign countries to gu-terests, apply to the construction of ships as well as to the Mr IRIMBIE. In some countries, yes, sir; Japan and, I think, It takes various forms, such as the scrapping of old vessels they have and the allowance of a consideration for the construcof Lew tonnage. It takes various forms. It is pretty difficult ve you a direct answer. CHAIRMAN. As a matter of fact, Mr. Trimble, right on that teant, the foreign countries, most of them, are getting new ships, and e are getting new ships by a replacement program, are they not? Mr TRIMBIE Yes, sir. The CHAIRMAN. Whereby the shipping company contributes a tertain amount and the Government contributes toward the replaceIn other words, if the company will pay so much, the Governpay so much for the replacement. Mr RIMBLE. That is correct, in a number of countries. The CHAIRMAN. And, as a result, nearly all the countries are getting up-to-date ships, except the United States. Mr TRIMBLE. We are falling behind very rapidly in the percentage tennage. CHAIRMAN. And trade is going to the faster and more modern 2s it not? TRIMBLE. Well, that influences the flow of trade greatly. If an can ship on a vessel of 14 or 15 knots, he will pass up a 12ter sailing at the same time. The Chairman. And there are other economic reasons, because of arance that he has on his cargo, and the turnover in money, 4hat sort of thing. M IMBLR. Naturally, the insurance premiums will be less on a ern tip than they will be on an old ship. The CHAIRMAN. And the premium paid on the insurance for 4 d be less than the premium on the insurance for 5 days. Vir TRIMBLE. Yes, sir. 1. CHAIRMAN. So that the shipper takes that into consideration A his shipping arrangement and also in sending his goods by faster ship. VIRIMBLE. That is correct. Chairman. Do you not believe, Mr. Trimble, that if the people ine United States, the shipping public, could be assured that we .:g to have a permanent American merchant marine, and that es cod patronize American ships, and that they would not be subted to the necessity of making new contracts with foreign ships, at they would patronize the American ships, if they could carry the get as cheaply as their foreign competitors? Mr. TRIMBLE. I do not think that there is any question, Mr. an, but that that will follow. I think that sometimes we e our American shippers unjustly for shipping on foreign ships. soud not expect them to ship at higher rates, at greater cost, an obsolete American ship, when they can get better service, at wer cost, on a foreign ship. I believe that if we build up our Amerian merchant marine, modernize it, that we will not have any diffiy in securing passenger and cargo business and, when we secure a reasonable share of the business, it was the hope of the committee, with this subsidy fund operating, the differentials would disappear altogether. We are also suffering from lack of business, from inability to get passengers and cargo, as well as from lack of the subsidy. Mr. SIROVICH. It is your opinion that the time is not far distant when there will have to be a line of cleavage and demarcation, when we will have the faster ships carrying the largest passenger business and will have the freight moving on the slower ships? That is what they are doing with the Rex, the Normandie, The Queen Mary. They are mainly operated for the passenger traffic and carry very little cargo. But the tendency may be to develop fast cargo ships, carrying cargo alone, not for passenger business. Mr. TRIMBLE. I am not qualified to say the extent to which that tendency will go; but there are various classes in the steamship business, both in the passenger and the cargo trade; and perhaps that will follow, that the larger ships and the faster ships will be limited to the passenger trade. Mr. CULKIN. May I ask another question, Mr. Chairman? I assume that you went into the question of the personnel of this future American merchant marine. Was there a special committee studying that? Mr. TRIMBLE. The personnel? Mr. CULKIN. Personnel; that is the creation of an American group of seamen that would man these ships. Mr. TRIMBLE. Mr. Culkin, in regard to that, Mr. Weaver, who has been identified with the shipbuilding industry for quite a long time, was a member of the committee, and he has made quite a study of the problem of personnel. Mr. CULKIN. You will agree that it is of almost equal importance to getting the ships. Mr. TRIMBLE. I think so. Mr. CULKIN. Is there any proposition of old-age insurance provided in this report of your committee? Mr. TRIMBLE. No; that is one of the propositions that we want this maritime authority to consider. It is a pretty big undertaking, to start from scratch when the other nations have already built up this system. Mr. CULKIN. You know that the other nations do have this old-age security? Mr. TRIMBLE. I understand that many of them do. Mr. CULKIN. It is a part of the groundwork of building up an efficient merchant marine. Mr. TRIMBLE. Yes, sir. Mr. CULKIN. And we have never had that? Mr. TRIMBLE. We want to make the American merchant marine an attractive place for the seamen and to stop this great turn-over, to give them an adequate compensation, pay a decent wage, and I feel that the American seamen will require some provision of that sort. The CHAIRMAN. That will require a longer period than we have before the expiration of these ocean-mail contracts. Mr. CULKIN. I will say, Mr. Chairman, that you will never get a merchant marine until some such determination is had of that question. That is my opinion. IRIMITE I think that will follow right along. Mr. Charta an. RABATT I think it is son ething that ought to be looked into, e- tullished in a position where they will be taken care been talang about old-age pensions, from 65 up; and bejeve what we may be able to do on that problem is as tas dom z awry with this discrimination against men of 40, as they are tod, lor instance, in my own city, in the in distry, diserir ansted against by the manufacturers etter that everybody that is doing any thing toward making height to give special consideration The men of this the fathers of families, are thrown out of employment at the en they have their grestest burdens; and that is one of the of the suffering that we are having 1 to rot know anything about the shipping industry; but I am *r to be on this committee It is something that we ought to it when we are having to do with legislation and are making estions as to what should be incorporated in bills of the character ter consideration Mr. Math. I think, as a rule, the shipping interests try to take KANAL T. The pictures vou see of sailors usually show men of It just happens to strike me that they are having older men in pting industry. Of course, there are some things the older or cor, not do, but a certain percentage of the jobs that ought to be te older men. CITATHMAN What do you think of the advisability of developr the benefit of the American merchant marine some body vested tue powers of the Board of Trade in Great Britain, that can Jay on such matters as rates and other things that come up *tem, and give prompt decisions? ... TRIMBLE. I think that is one of the things that is very necesears of we are to meet effectively the changing conditions; and I know Shipping Board Bureau are now trying to meet these quescome up perhaps daily The CHAIRMAN I have already incorporated in the record the by the Department of Commerce to the questions that we arded and I will say to the committee that I am trying to ce to have these hearings printed promptly, without correction. - we can keep up with them as they go on. Were these questions all answered or are there some for which you aerot furnished answers” Mr. TRIMBLE. Well, no, sir; I believe we were not able to supply answers to all. The Secretary wishes me to advise the committee that he was very happy to cooperate with the committee; and he hopes the members would avail themselves of every facility of the Department of Com merce. The CHAIRMAN. The committee will meet at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning. (Thereupon, at 12:20 p. m., the committee adjourned until tomorrow, Wednesday, Mar. 20, 1935, at 10 a. m.) TO DEVELOP AN AMERICAN MERCHANT MARINE PART 1. MERCHANT MARINE POLICY WEDNESDAY, MARCH 20, 1935 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, PASTYY ON THe Merchant Marine and FISHERIES, Washington, DC *ittee met at 10 am, Hon. Schuyler O. Bland (chairman) BATEMAN 1 ain going to ask Mr Haag to take the stand sing then I am going to try as far as possible to hear the lisag, give your name, residence, and occupation to the STATEMENT OF ALFRED H. HAAG, CHIEF DIVISION OF SHIPPING RESEARCH, UNITED STATES SHIPPING BOARD BUREAU, DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE Mr Has Vfred H Hang, Chief Division of Shipping Research, HAAG ted States Shuppig Board Bureau, Department of Commerce. ↑ CHAIRMAN. You have been connected with the Shipping Bd in the Research Division for what period of time, Mr. Hang? HAAG About 8 years. 7 @ CHAIRMAN So that you are very familiar with the shipping and with the condition of our shipping, as I personally from the former appearances you have made before this comor a number of occasions. ant to get the picture as much as possible before the committee. as the position of the American merchant marine before the War, Mr Hang” Mr HAAG Before the World War the American merchant marine matered for the foreign trade totaled about slightly over a million There were then operating in regular services in the nearby oversess foreign trade about 81 vessels of nearly 500,000 tons. e devade prior to the World War showed the greatest decline in nowy shipping in the foreign trade over the 30 years before the War American ships carried only 10 percent of the total e trade of the United States in the decade preceding the World W.h the outbreak of the World War, there was a great demand for ⚫ard that demand increased very rapidly. At the time we entered Word War, the conditions in the movement of our overseas emerce became very chaotic and that inspired legislation which |