(The following statement and table was filed for the record by Mr. McVay :)

STATEMENT OF J. H. MOVAY, WASHINGTON, D. C., BEFORE THE SENATE COMMERCE COMMITTEE

Mr. MOVAY. I should like to have an hour, in which to address the committee.

The CHAIRMAN. Do not make it an hour; confine your statement to 15 minutes, please.

Mr. MCVAY. I cannot do that.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, go ahead and see what you can do in 15 minutes. Mr. MCVAY. My name is J. H. McVay. I live in the Lindbergh Apartments, Washington, D. C.

I do not represent any organization or interest; I am speaking unofficially, as a citizen, and speaking in favor of the measure.

I shall limit my remarks to 5 minutes, if you will strike out section 801. I want American citizens in the American merchant marine, instead of aliens. The CHAIRMAN. Your position is the same as that of Colonel Ryons, who spoke a few moments ago?

Mr. MCVAY. No; it is not.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well; proceed, and let us hear you, on section 801. Mr. MCVAY. Section 801 reads as follows:

"All vessels operated under any contract made under and pursuant to this act shall be manned in their deck and engine-room departments exclusively by citizens of the United States, native born or completely naturalized, unless satisfactory proof is made to the Bureau of Navigation and Steamboat Inspection that qualified and competent citizens are not procurable therefor."

That is the first time you have ever seen the language, "native-born or completely naturalized", in any of the bills.

The CHAIRMAN. That is not improper, is it?

Mr. MCVAY. That is excellent, thanks to Judge Bland. Judge Bland got the Bland bill through the House. through the House in the Seventy-second Congress.

Judge Davis got it

Judge Bland got it through, in the Seventy-fourth Congress; and it is going to be signed, and it is going to go through the Senate.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

Mr. McVAY. And I will give you all credit, Senator Copeland, when it comes through your Senate Immigration Committee, if your committee acts, Senator. It is before your committee now.

Section 801 is as follows:

"All vessels operated under any contract made under and pursuant to this act shall be manned in their deck and engine-room departments exclusively by citizens of the United States, native born or completely naturalized, unless satisfactory proof is made to the Bureau of Navigation and Steamboat Inspection that qualified and competent citizens are not procurable therefor: Provided, That this section shall not apply to the stewards' department, but preference in the employment of citizens in such steward's department should be given by the owners of any such vessels so far as efficient and competent employees are available."

That language is very unsatisfactory to all of the veterans' organizations, all of the patriotic societies, and all of those people who are sincerely interested in the subject of Americanization of the American merchant marine. That language will entirely destroy a portion of the 1928 Merchant Marine Act. I have reference to section 405.

The CHAIRMAN. The present law requires three-fourths.

Mr. MCVAY. Two-thirds; and in that two-thirds you do not have two-thirds American citizens. The percentage calls for two-thirds, but aliens are now being employed in the two-thirds percentage of the group.

This new section, here, will tear down, entirely, the two-thirds percentage that we are supposed to have in our present law, quoting from the law, section 405, paragraph (c):

From and after the enactment of this act, all licensed officers of vessels documented under the laws of the United States, as now required by law, shall be citizens of the United States. From and after the enactment of this act, and for a period of 4 years "—

That was in May 1928, which would make it 4 years to May 1932. At that tile, one half of the crew-the "crew" including all employees of the ship, other than officers--were citizens of the United States, after the 4 years: * Thereafter "—

That is, after a 4-year period—

all others in the crew, as above defined, shall be citizens of the United States,”

That is the Merchant Marine Act of 1928, our present law, under which we are now working. And that is the law which this new bill is intended to repesi; section 1012 refers to the repeal of the Merchant Marine Act of 1928. This proposed law would repeal section 405 (c). And in general language, as Senator White stated this morning, this indefinite language-if you do not I at it in the law nevertheless paves the way and leaves open the way for interpretations. The steamship companies could then, under this law, employ more than two thirds aliens, whereas they are now supposed to employ twothirds citizens. I say "could"; I do not say "would." However, I have my doubts.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean in the stewards' division?

Mr. MOVAY. I am talking about this law; I am not talking about the stewards' department.

I am talking about the men who would be employed on the ship if this law were passed. I am talking about the percentage of citizens employed. It is a highly technical point; but when you say percentage, you mean percentage.

This 1:28 act specifies that we have a two-thirds percentage of the crew as American citizens, supposedly.

Ilus proposed law will entirely remove that percentage, and will increase the percentage of aliens in the American merchant marine.

I have documentary evidence and statistics to cover these points. I debate t'e issue, pro and con, with anybody; I have done nothing but lobby before both Houses of Congress, for the past 2 years, on this particular piece of legislation.

I am not standing up and endorsing, in their entirety, the remarks of Colonel By : I hope to Heaven that I shall live to see the day when we shall have American merchant marine that is 100 percent American owned and manned. But I do not think that day is here today.

I know that Colonel Ryons is listening, and is very interested. But I am gg to stick with it, and not permit this 66 percent to be torn down by tras proposed bill.

Because right today, if we were working under section 801, instead of section 45, my contention is that it would cut down the percentage of American

Let us take one ship, for Illustration, that is subsidized: On deck, they Find 54 citizens, 3 aliens with 3 year certificates, and 2 aliens-making, in all,

on deck.

And there were 75 in the engine room and 350 in the stewards' department. The CHAIRMAN. How many of the men in the engine room were citizens? Mr. MCVAY, In the engine room, there were 74 citizens, There was one 3 year man, and there were no aliens.

On deck, there were 84 citizens; there were three 3-year men and two aliensa magnificent record.

it in the stewards' department

The CHAIRMAN. But would it be even better under this bill?

Mr. MCVAY. I beg your pardon?

The CHAIRMAN. It would be better, so far as the deck and engine room departments are concerned, under this bill; because it would be 100 percent American.

Mr. MCVAY. That would be fine.

The CHAIRMAN That is in the bill.

Mr MCVAY, Yes; and that would be fille.

Bat you build it up 2 feet, and then you tear it down 70 feet. In section 465 tel, you change that two thirds to 100 percent and then you come right back and tear down 80 percent of what you have built up.

The CHAIRMAN, I see what you mean.

Now, what would you do about the stewards' department?

Mr. McVAY. I have no personal opinions; I am not an expert, and I am not authority on the subject.

However, I would suggest that a portion of Senate bill 1933, which was introduced by Senator La Follette February 15, 1935, be submitted as an amendment, or to take the entire place of section 801.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you show me that, please?

The witness refers to S. 1933?

Mr. McVAY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. S. 1933 was introduced by Senator La Follette.

The witness calls my particular attention to the fourth paragraph of section 4, page 3, of the bill, in which it says:

"In signing on a crew, on a domestic vessel, to see that at least 75 percent of the crew in each department of the vessel, exclusive of licensed officers, are citizens of the United States, and that the remainder are eligible for citizenship."

Mr. MOVAY. Stop right there.

The CHAIRMAN. Stop there?

Mr. MOVAY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to have that in place of all the language of section 801?

Mr. MOVAY. I would be so happy. I am not joking; I would be so happy if we could live to see that day.

Colonel Ryons, in his statement, advocated 100 percent American merchant marine. Let us be reasonable and consider the men in the shipping Industry. They are not all un-American, and they are not all unpatriotic.

I want to tell a little story about that, later on. Some of them are buddies of mine, who served overseas with me.

However, let us not hang an anchor on the necks of the people who are trying to build up the American merchant marine. Let us, the American veterans and patriotic societies, come before the committees and have a constructive program to offer, and let us work with the members of the House and Senate, to build up that American merchant marine.

Let us not lay down an iron-clad program, that is going to be so bound that we are going to kill the program. I have spent $8,000 of my own money in the last 2 years advocating an American merchant marine, 100 percent American manned and owned. And I believe in it, and I hope to see the day when it will come.

But at the present time I do not believe the conditions-even though abnormal conditions now exist-make that possible. Of course, we can get all the seamen we want. As one of the Senators said to me the other day, "McVay, I can get bankers to fill all the positions you want."

But if the veterans' societies and the patriotic societies will come here and offer a constructive and feasible program, the members of the shipping interests, who have their money invested, are not going to get up and say this, that, or the other thing.

Just as Congressman Dickstein said the other day, "You patriotic societies are always ‘agin everything.' Why don't you come in sometimes with something constructive?" That is what I want to do today.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. McVay, I think I am willing to go further than you want to go. We have already said today that we want the deck and engineroom departments exclusively American citizens in their manning.

Mr. MCVAY. But I am going further than that.

The CHAIRMAN. You mean, what they are actually doing?

Mr. MOVAY. No; what this bill proposes to do.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not so sure but that I would not be willing to accept your language for the steward's department.

Mr. McVAY. I thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. I am not committing myself on it, but I am just as anxious as you are.

Mr. MCVAY. I know you are. I have read everything you said in the 1928 sessions. I was in the Congressional Library for 19 weeks, in 1928, when this 1928 act was up.

And when this 1928 act was up, the members of the shipping industry came before the committees and said, "If you are going to have 100-percent American citizens, you are going to handicap the American merchant marine and are going to tear it down", etc. I read every word of their statements. And so that provision was amputated.

What the American patriotic societies offered at that time did not constitute a sound program. And that is why a program of 50 percent was reached.

The law at the present time specifies that two thirds of the crew must be Citizens of the United States. However, it left a loophole, so that after the I got was passed some of the members of the shipping industry wanted to vans and insisted they were going to hire aliens, But they had to stay Wit it the law.

So the shipping industry hired some of the most brilliant lawyers, in an endeavor to find out how to get around that provision of the law; and they discovered how to do that.

They had to go back to the World War and discover the act of May 9, 1929, and resurrect that law. They turned it over to the Postmaster General, asking for an opinion as to whether they could employ aliens under this paragrach 3 section (e), of 405,

De Postmaster General said, "I am not sure whether you may hire aliens or not; so I shall refer this to the Attorney General, Mr. Mitchell, for an •f thion"

The Attorney General dug into the law, and he ruled, “Yes; you may hire aliens and put them in the two-thirds group."

And Congressman Bland, the Chairman of the House Merchant Marine ComButtee, when he was speaking for his bill the other day on the floor of the House of Representatives—and I quote from the Congressional Record of February 4, 1935-said, in answer to a question of Congressman Jenkins [reading]:

Mr JENKINS The bill proposes that if these men are employed on these jobs they must be citizens.

Mr BLAND That is true. At the present time, notwithstanding the provisens of the Merchant Marine Act of 1928, which requires that on ocean-mail tessels two-thirds of the crew shall be American citizens, a crew may be made up of aliens entirely. And for this reason, if one-third of the crew is permitted tổ be aliens, the other two-thirds may be the 3-year certificate men, and you will Lave 100 percent allens, notwithstanding the fact that the law requires 664g pervent shall be Americans."

Commisisoner Tyrer testified before the Immigration Committee that was considering Judge Davis' bill, when Judge Davis was chairman of the Merchant Marine Committee, prior to Judge Bland. We have Commissioner Tyrer's statement here, and I shall quote from the hearings [reading}:

"So far as this bill is concerned "--

Referring to the Davis bill, which was the Bland bill, last session, and which Is now H. R. 67, to which Colonel Ryons referred [continues reading]"Mr Chairman, the Bureau of Navigation is in accord with its purposes, to provide for native-born or fully naturalized citizens to serve as two-thirds of ite crew of the vessels operating under these mail contracts. At the present time we have no law relating to the citizenship of seamen, except so far as it relates to officers, outside of this law which is under discussion "

As Judge Davis has said, under the ocean mail contract law, two-thirds of the crew--beginning with next May-must be American citizens; and if this low remains as at present, under the opinion of the Attorney General, it will be Tomch'e for the mail-contract ships to operate with every member of the crew in a ien. The Department of Commerce and the Bureau of Navigation are in a word on rectifying that situation

I have spent the last 2 years of my time, and plenty of my money, trying to get this bill enacted into law, in order that we may furnish jobs for our thmusands of idle American citizens,

I am not interested in seamen; I am in no way connected with any seamen's organization or any American Federation of Labor program That is not it. My program is based on five words · Citizens of the United States.

My hopes and ambitions and alms are to try, in my humble way, to do sometling to help get them jobs. At the present time we are spending $29,000,000 in subsidies for ships. According to the Black committee--and I sat there and beard all the testimony of that committee, as well as all the testimony in the pst-office-hearing--there has been some contention that at least part of that money was no expended in keeping with the intentions of the Members of Congress when they enacted the Merchant Marine Act of 1928,

I charge, and I shall prove it, that some of those millions of dollars were raid to allens, who were working on those vessels in violation of the intent of the Members of Congress. And I checked up in the post office and found that many of these millions of dollars were paid to aliens and were taken to the post offices, turned into postal money orders, and sent back to their home

country. Many of them had not lived in the United States; they came to the United States and got their first papers but had not lived here,

Prior to the 1st of July all you had to do was to pay a dollar and go to Mr. Saunders here, or the collector of customs, and hand in your discharge papers and state that you wanted to be a citizen and wanted to get a job in the merchant marine. The collector of customs would look in his papers-which I have in my bag--and say, “All right; according to the interpretation of the Attorney General you are a citizen."

And so, under the regulation regarding two-thirds of the crew, such men were American citizens. However, when they come back they are checked in by the United States immigration authority, and they are considered as aliens. They enjoy a dual nationality or status that is not enjoyed by any class of aliens in the United States for which we could legislate.

Senator La Follette, in his statement about 25 percent, covers the class of aliens regarding whom I am favorable.

In the United States we have American citizens by birth; we have American citizens by naturalization. Those latter are aliens who have come to the United States, who have complied with all of our laws, and who have become full-fledged American citizens. Some of those fellows served with our Army and with those of us who were in the Army over in France. And they were very, very fine soldiers.

In the United States today we have millions of good American citizens on our relief rolls. And when we legislate and appropriate $35,000,000 or $50,000,000 and I hope it will be $50,000,000 instead of $35,000,000 on our new subsidy, are we going to appropriate it for building up jobs and creating opportunities for our idle first? I hope so. I certainly hope that we will do it for our own idle, our own American citizens; and next, for our idle aliens who are legally in the United States. We have thousands of aliens who are legally in the United States. They have their legal first papers, and they fully intend to become American citizens. And that class of alien is entitled to every consideration in the world. And that class of alien constitutes the 25 percent that I am willing to allow the shipping industry to employ.

I will say this: Employ 25 percent and you will hear no more from me, provided that this program lasts for a period of 5 years, giving the aliens 5 years in which to complete their citizenship during that period. On shipboard it takes 3 years to become naturalized, while otherwise it takes 5 years. However, perhaps the aliens say, "Well, I cannot make it in 3 years on account of travel." So let us set it at 5 years.

At the present time the members of the shipping industry are going to say that I am not an expert or an auhority when I talk about a survey recently having been made.

However, I should like to read this statment into the record;

"A recent survey of the principal seaports on the Atlantic, Gulf, and Pacific coasts shows there is a sufficient supply of physically fit, competent American seamen to fully man the present and prospective merchant marine."

I am not an official of the Government; that statement cannot be made as an official statement. But I believe that if the committee made a request upon the Department of Commerce the Department of Commerce would furnish that information. In fact, I believe they would furnish the same wording that I have just read here. It is a clipping from an official document that was submitted to one of the committees. It is a carbon copy that was given to me with permission to use it here, but not officially.

However, I do not say that we have, today, that many physically fit seamen; I am not that radical or revolutionary-to say that we have sufficient unemployed, competent, well-trained American citizens to man even our present merchant marine, to say nothing about manning our future merchant marine. I do not say that. I believe that we have; but for policy's sake, I cannot say it. So, I am offering a constructive program; and I am saying to the shipping industry representatives who will attempt to tear all of this down: Here, we will go along with you on a constructive program. Let us have 75 percent-that is only an increase from 66% percent up to 75 percent, and let us have that increase; it is not unreasonable. For the balance, we will give you 25 percent aliens, upon the condition that that 25 percent will be composed of aliens who are legally within the United States. We will give you 5 years to get these aliens into full citizenship.

Then, later on, I want to talk about the Merchant Marine Academy for training. I am heartily in favor of the academy, but that is an argument.