munists, and the mere misinterpretation of the word "brainwashing" has, for example, lent additional terror to people who have the idea that the system that is used has some mysterious, irresistible techniques for converting minds and bending people's wills to their purpose which are impossible to do anything about, and therefore creates additional terror.

This is one reason why we are very dubious about using the term or any other, such as menticide, which might give people the idea that the methods that have been used here are different from methods that have been used for hundreds of years and that are prevalent in the Communist arsenal all along. This is our conception on that point. Mr. O'DONNELL. Do you think the methods used by the Chinese Communists were successful?

Dr. SANDER. Successful to the extent that they were persistently applied, to the extent that they were willing to give the time, and the continuous application of these methods in obtaining certain objectives. Obviously they did get some germ warfare confessions.

Senator MCCARTHY. Could I interrupt, Mr. Chairman?

Did I understand you correctly to say that the methods were more brutal than anything that has been known for several hundred years? Dr. SANDER. No, sir. I would qualify that by saying that the methods are not any more mysterious or irresistible than have been known for some hundreds of years. The methods that were used in Korea are not too much dissimilar from those practiced by the Communists against their own personnel in political extortion of confessions.

Senator MCCARTHY. In view of what you related here about the brutality of the Communists and the methods they used, what would you think about a suggestion that we furnish military aid to a Communist country? Would you care to answer that?

Dr. SANDER. Sir, I am not competent to answer that question.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you want to ask Dr. Sanders or Mr. Biderman further questions?

Mr. O'DONNELL. Doctor, is there any method that you can think of which would aid in training our men to offset this type of treatment? Dr. SANDER. Here I am offering only my own opinion in as much as the object of our research was to furnish information to the Air Force for implementing its own training program, but I would say the best thing we can do is to acquaint our potential personnel in the Air Force, for example, our United States fighting forces, and the people generally with Communist methods of treating them. To be warned is to be forearmed. The kind of thing this committee is doing right now in exposing the methods that have been used is the best kind of preparation.

The CHAIRMAN. I was going to ask you, do you think public hearings of this nature, spreading on the record for every one to see and know, including all the civilized world as far as we can disseminate the information which is being recorded here, might build world opinion and resentment that would be calculated to deter any such further practices?

Dr. SANDER. I should think it would have a good chance of doing so. I was answering Mr. O'Donnell's question primarily in terms of the kind of preparation that we were advocating for our own Air Force: personnel.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, I realize that. Sometimes I find myself asking the question, are we accomplishing anything? We are taking a great deal of time here to spread this on the record. Is it a constructive job the committee has undertaken, assuming we can get this information on the record and make it available as information not only to our own troops and those who may come into the service hereafter and who may some day have to face similar conditions and experiences, but to the world at large? Would there not be some resentment among civilized countries that probably places a different evaluation on communism and different appraisal of it from what we have had heretofore? Would they not realize that there is associated with it such inhuman treatment and brutality as has been demonstrated?

Dr. SANDER. I would concur in that personally, certainly. I would also like to add that I think one of the main services that this committee is rendering by exposing these methods is to show that the methods were so severe that if any blame is to be assessed upon the returnees, whether they be Air Force, Marines, or Army, that the blame should be placed upon the Communists rather than upon the personnel who returned.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, it is very easy for those of us who sat over here in comfort and safety, not exposed to such treatment, tỏ condemn those who may succumb under such circumstances without knowing the ordeals that they have endured.

Dr. SANDER. Precisely.

The CHAIRMAN. I think it is well that we should keep that in mind. You might say to yourself, "I wouldn't," but we don't know what we would do until we had to suffer it.

Are there any further questions?

Senator MCCARTHY. I have just 1 or 2 more questions.

Doctor, we have had testimony from the Defense Department and the State Department and I believe from some other branch of the military-I don't recall which-before the committee to the effect that the Chinese Communists are still holding 481 prisoners who are unaccounted for. Of course some of them may be dead, but they are not accounted for. They were known to be living and in the hands of the Communists at one time. I think that figure has now decreased to 465 or thereabouts. It is somewhere in that general area. Do we have any way of knowing what is happening to those prisoners now?

Dr. SANDER. In this relationship we are completely dependent upon the Department of Defense and the casualty departments of the various services. I believe Mr. Jackson gave some figures a while ago. I have nothing further to add to that.

Senator MCCARTHY. Could you tell me how the Department of Defense feels about my proposed legislation that we cut off any aid to countries shipping to the Red China area as long as they hold American uniformed men prisoner?

Dr. SANDER. Sir, I can't speak for the Department of Defense. I

am sorry.

Senator MCCARTHY. You are working for the Department now? Dr. SANDER. Yes.

Senator MCCARTHY. I guess under the circumstances I should not ask you to give your personal opinion.

The CHAIRMAN. Before you go the Chair would like to ask each of you: During the course of giving your testimony there was a short

period of time this afternoon when we did not have a quorum present. I should like to ask you if the testimony you gave during that period of time you stated under oath is true?

Dr. SANDER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BIDERMAN. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much. We appreciate very much. your cooperation and your appearance and the assistance you have given us in trying to do this, we hope, constructive legislative job. Thank you very much.

Captain Harris? Will you come around, please.

Captain, will you be sworn, please. You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give before this Senate investigating subcommittee shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain HARRIS. I do.

TESTIMONY OF CAPT. THEODORE HARRIS, UNITED STATES AIR

FORCE

The CHAIRMAN. Captain Harris, will you state your name, your rank, and the service that you are in, please, sir?

Captain HARRIS. Theodore Harris, captain, United States AirForce.

The CHAIRMAN. How long have you been in the Air Force, Captain? Captain HARRIS. Active duty 8 years, no months.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you talked to members of the staff and do you know generally the line of interrogation that may be followed? Captain HARRIS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You do not desire personal counsel present?
Captain HARRIS. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much.

Captain, you may proceed.

Senator MCCARTHY. May I ask one question first. I think for the record, Captain, it might be well for you to tell us what decorations you received. I see you have a sizable number.

Captain HARRIS. Silver Star, Distinguished Flying Cross, Bronze Star, Air Medal, Purple Heart. That is all in the way of medals. Senator MCCARTHY. I noticed there was a sizable number. I was anxious to have them made a part of the record.

The CHAIRMAN. I think that was very appropriate.

Mr. KENNEDY. What is your home address, Captain? Where are you from?

Captain HARRIS. At present it is 710 West 12th Street, Reno, Nev. Mr. KENNEDY. Captain, did you fly in Korea during the war? Captain HARRIS. Yes.

Mr. KENNEDY. What were you flying?

Captain HARRIS. I was the aircraft commander on a B-29 aircraft. Mr. KENNEDY. You were shot down in Korea, were you?

Captain HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. What month of the war?

Captain HARRIS. July 4, 1952.

Mr. KENNEDY. Captain, based on what you saw and the experiences that you had, would you tell the committee what the treatment of the

American prisoners was in the Korean war, based on your personal experience? Would you tell us first about what happened to you after you were shot down? What happened to the plane? Evidently you were badly burned at that time; is that correct?

Captain HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Would you tell the committee the circumstances? Captain HARRIS. While we were on a normal night reconnaissance mission we were attacked by five of the at that time MIG's with radar equipment. After the third pass they had set seven separate fires in our aircraft and we were forced to abandon it.

As Mr. Kennedy said, prior to abandoning the aircraft, most of the crew were wounded in one way or another, and I had quite a few burns.

Senator MCCARTHY. I have some difficulty hearing you. I wonder if you could speak a little louder.

Captain HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Shortly after midnight we were forced to abandon the aircraft. I was the last to leave. I parachuted out and landed in a rice paddy, which everybody lands in in Korea. I was in quite a state of shock.

Mr. KENNEDY. Could I go back just a minute, Captain. As I understand from your record, you received a message from one of your other crew members that he was trapped in the plane; is that correct? Captain HARRIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. And you were trying to put the fire in the plane out or keep it away from where he was?

Captain HARRIS. Yes, sir. I will back up just a little.

As I said, after the third MIG attack we had seven separate fires burning in the aircraft. When I finally decided it was hopeless to get out of North Korea-we attempted to get out over the water away from the mainland-I gave the crew the order to bail out. When that happened my tail gunner called and said that he was trapped, that he had fire all around him and couldn't get out. I notified him to stand by until the rest of the crew got out and I would ship the aircraft, or attempt to, and blow the fire away from his escape hatch so he could make a successful escape. About that time the intercom went out and I couldn't contact him any further. I continued to try to fly the aircraft and blow the fire away from him. Since I had no contact with him I didn't know if he was in the aircraft or had gotten out. As it turns out, he had gotten out quite a while before.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that mean that you stayed with the aircraft longer than was necessary for you to except that you were trying to save and protect him?

Captain HARRIS. That is the way it worked out; yes, sir.

When I finally couldn't stand the fire any longer I abandoned the aircraft. In doing so I knocked myself unconscious. I hit my head on a part of the aircraft. I came to about three or four thousand feet above the ground, opened my parachute and landed.

As I said before, I was in what I considered a severe state of shock and, being quite badly burned, I had to cut myself out of my parachute. I couldn't open the buckles and release myself from it. So I cut myself out of the chute and stomped it into a rice paddy to hide it and went up to the highest terrain I could find in that area, which was about a half or three-quarters of a mile from the scene of my landing.

I soon realized that I wasn't in any shape to travel right then, primarily due to my burns and shock. So I elected to conceal myself in the brush and try to rest and get my mind cleared up to where I could formulate some type of escape plan.

Mr. KENNEDY. How badly were you burned, Captain?

Captain HARRIS. Most of my face was burned. That was more or less flash burns which just took the skin off. It didn't get into the flesh too deeply.

Senator MCCARTHY. You say "just" took the skin off? That is rather serious.

Captain HARRIS. Unfortunately I had my flying suits rolled up and no gloves, violating all the rules of the Air Force, and both hands and arms were burned fairly severely. My oxygen caught fire and I breathed it before I discovered it so my mouth and throat were pretty badly burned inside and part of the way down my back.

The parachute had eight panels burned nearly completely out of it. It was a little lopsided but it worked pretty well.

After I concealed myself in the brush I can't say I went to sleep. I either went to sleep or passed out. When I woke up it was about 5 o'clock in the morning. The first thing I noticed were UN aircraft on one of their early missions. I had no way to contact them so I decided incidentally, that hill was right next to the Chong Chong Gang River and I decided I would use my Mae West after dark that night and attempt to move down the river by the aid of my Mae West and possibly steal a sampan or some kind of a boat and possibly get out to an island off the west coast.

At that time the local militia, as I assumed they were, Koreans in varied uniforms-it seems like every one designs their own uniform there were searching the area quite extensively. I had no particular difficulty in evading them. They are just normal like everyone else. They soon tired of the chase and left the area. But my burns, particularly my throat and mouth, began to give me a lot of trouble. I was rapidly becoming dehydrated from the burns weeping. I attempted to get water at a Korean home. I approached a woman working in a field and indicated I wanted water, which she furnished through her little girl in the house. After drinking the water an old man, who I assume probably was the grandfather, came up and was quite upset at my presence. I thought maybe they were just afraid they would get in trouble if they helped me any further. Since they had given me the water that I needed so badly, I didn't press the issue. I just left.

Later on in the early afternoon I decided if I didn't get some kind of medical attention I couldn't go ahead with any attempt to escape. I just wasn't physically up to it.

By that time my tongue had swollen to where I couldn't keep my mouth closed. It was pushing my mouth open, just about like having a hardboiled egg in your mouth. So I started down the trail toward a small village which was close to Sinanju. In the meantime I had buried all identification and as I approached the village I discarded my .45. I felt that I would have less chance of getting shot if they did pick me up without the weapon in view rather than obviously being armed. I felt if I could get help I would come back out the same trail and gather my weapon on the way and go ahead with my original plan. I ran into an old woman coming up the hill carrying a water jug. She appeared quite shocked at my appearance. I used my hunting