The CHAIRMAN. It does not have to be exact, just in round numbers. Captain CUMBY. It was about 125 or 130 on Little Switch.

The CHAIRMAN. You say only 2 or 3 of those were actually sickCaptain CUMBY. I would say it was less than 10 who were actually sick and wounded.

The CHAIRMAN. And the others were what?

Captain CUMBY. The others were healthy individuals that we found had been the cooperators or collaborators or whatever you choose to call them.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, they had been sufficiently indoctrinated that they thought they could release them and that their release would be to the advantage of the Communists?

Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir, to give the impression that there had been no maltreatment of Americans, that here you have 120 well and hardy individuals. That information was told to us. It was verified. It was supported.

The CHAIRMAN. Did not the very fact that only a few, some 8 or 10, had had the experience of being sick or wounded arouse your suspicions immediately that the Communists were not acting in good faith?

Captain CUMBY. Oh, absolutely. There never has been any doubt in my mind as to the trustworthiness of the Communists. That was just another indication that their word didn't mean anything and that you could not deal with them.

That holding back of those prisoners was deliberate and it was by design.

The CHAIRMAN. Just by way of building background here, how many prisoners did we return to them in the operation Little Switch? Captain CUMBY. I don't have the figure, sir, on that, but I would say it was probably a couple of thousand.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator McCarthy.

Senator MCCARTHY. I am not sure if you are in a position to answer this question or not, Captain Cumby. We have had testimony before the committee previously by the Defense Department and the State Department that Communists still hold-I do not have the exact figure in mind-I think it is 457 Americans. Could you shed any light on that? It is a very important matter if they are still holding Americans in Communist prisons.

Captain CUMBY. Senator McCarthy, that certainly is an important question. There were more than 7,000 prisoners in North Korea. I am giving round figures. There were something like 7,000 or close to 8,000. We got back something like 4,000. What happened to the other prisoners I don't have the vaguest idea.

Senator MCCARTHY. The testimony we got, if I can rely upon my memory, was that they had 944, I believe, in their prison camps where prisoners were living. Then I think that figure dwindled to 450something. You would not be in a position to give us any information on that?

Captain CUMBY. No, sir, other than that every prisoner who was interviewed during Little Switch and Big Switch, we made a very serious effort to try to find out from them what prisoners were withheld, where they were located, what they were doing. We got all kinds of answers that they believed that they were withholding some

prisoners. Where they were or what they were doing I don't know, sir.

Senator MCCARTHY. I think Judge Jackson might be able to sheld some light on that. If the Chairman does not mind.

The CHAIRMAN. I was going to ask the judge to identify himself for the record. He may comment at any time he wishes to do so.

Mr. STEPHEN S. JACKSON (Assistant General Counsel, Department of Defense). My name is Stephen S. Jackson. I am Assistant General Counsel for the Department of Defense. I am present here through the kindness of the committee to be of assistance to them and also to represent the Department.

I have, Mr. Chairman and Senator McCarthy, the most recent statement that we have, concerning which there has been no substantial change.

Concerning the 450 who are not accounted for as of the time of this information-and I believe it is up to date-it is not contended that these people are necessarily alive but it is contended that they have failed ever to give us a satisfactory accounting, although they were known at one time to be in their hands.

Senator MCCARTHY. In other words, Judge Jackson, if I may interrupt you, we do know that the 450 were living prisoners of the Chinese Communists at one time. They have given no accounting as to whether they have died or have been killed or whether they are still in Communist prisons.

Mr. JACKSON. They have never given any satisfactory answer to our demands, even though we have information to the effect that at some time all of these people were in Communist hands. We are most careful not to indicate necessarily as to how many of these may be alive at this time in the interests of the next of kin because we are not stating they are all alive or what percentage, but we are stating that the Communists have failed to account for them.

Senator MCCARTHY. We do know that they were healthy young men, and normally if properly treated they should be alive and should be returned. Or am I overstating it?

Mr. JACKSON. Whether or not they were healthy the last time seen, I dare say, Senator, some of them may have been wounded. All of them, however, were known by reasonably substantial evidence to be in the hands of the Communists, and they have repeatedly failed to account for them, even though we have demanded and are still pursuing that course.

Senator MCCARTHY. There is no reason, is there, why they should not give some accounting?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Senator MCCARTHY. In other words, if they died, if they are in prison, they should give us a report.

Mr. JACKSON. Absolutely.

Senator MCCARTHY. That was the agreement at Panmunjom?
Mr. JACKSON. Absolutely.

Senator MCCARTHY. No further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. KENNEDY. Captain, how many prisoners did you talk to or how many records did you review of these prisoners who came out of North Korea?

Captain CUMBY. I interviewed about 35 or 40. I had access to approximately 100 reports of interrogation and investigations.

Mr. KENNEDY. You made a study, did you not, of the organizational system set up by the Communists in the prison camps of North Korea?

Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Could you outline to the committee what procedure they followed and how their organization was constructed?

Čaptain CUMBY. The Communists in North Korea had a major command, not necessarily a major military command but they had a major command for control. The exact designation of that command we don't know, but according to reliable information it was something like the Communist prison command of North Korea.

This command was commanded by a full general officer, a full general Chinese officer, a major general, if I recall. His name was Chang. They had at Pyongyang, North Korea, the general headquarters for this North Korea Communist command. In that same city was located Camp 5. This command controlled tightly and rigidly every prison camp in North Korea. Under this Chinese general was a staff comparable to the general staff in the nomenclature of our military service. He had his G-1, he had his G-2, he had his G-3 and G-4, and other staff sections.

Under the officer who most nearly compared with our G-2 was a section designated as the education and training section. Under this section there were 2 primary functions: 1 for interrogation, 1 for indoctrination. Although these 2 sections overlapped in their duties, for all practical purposes they were 2 separate commands.

Under that same section of education and training was a section for propaganda. So you had the commanding general and his staff, and under his G-2 you had a staff responsible for interrogation, indoctrination, and propaganda.

Senator MCCARTHY. Captain, I hate to interrupt you, but I am going to have to leave shortly to go to a meeting of the Appropriations Committee. I should like to ask you a question, much as I hate to interrupt you. One of those in charge of propaganda was a British Communist writer; is that right?

Captain CUMBY. No, sir, Senator McCarthy. Soviet Russia had key personnel in every major section of that Communist prison command. Although they had a Chinese officer as the director, there was a Russian who served as liaison for interrogation, for indoctrination. For propaganda, the importance of propaganda can best be indicated by the fact that the chief of interrogation and the chief of indoctrination reported to the chief of that educational director section. However, the chief of propaganda did not. Even though he was under that section, he reported directly to the commanding general and was responsible to him. That was a Chinese officer with a Russian officer as liaison officer.

The point that you brought up was this Caucasian Burchett. There were 2 Europeans; there were 2 Caucasians in that propaganda setup. One was a fellow by the name of Allen Winnington, an Englishman, who was a newspaper correspondent for the Communist Daily Worker of London. Then we had Wilfred

Senator MCCARTHY. His name was Winnington?

Captain CUMBY. Allen Winnington.

Senator MCCARTHY. He was the correspondent for a Communist paper in London?

Captain CUMBY. He was a foreign correspondent, allegedly, for the Daily Worker of London. Actually he was part and parcel of the aparatus in North Korea. Wilfred Burchett was another Caucasian from Australia. Burchett had a very important hand in slanting, in writing, in drafting, in making the propaganda appealing to the western prisoners, the Americans and all other United Nations prisoners. That is where Burchett came in. He served more or less as a consultant.

Senator MCCARTHY. Burchett was from there?
Captain CUMBY. From Australia.

Senator MCCARTHY. Winnington was from—
Captain CUMBY. England.

Senator MCCARTHY. Thank you. I did not want to interrupt you, but I am going to have to leave as soon as we have another Senator here to give us a quorum. I wanted to get that straight in my mind first. Thank you very much. Now, if you will proceed.

Captain CUMBY. That generally, Mr. Kennedy, was the command structure. The implementation of the program flowed from that point.

Mr. KENNEDY. What about the Central Committee for World Peace?

Captain CUMBY. I am coming to that.

If we had an organizational chart you would find a line from the commanding general out to a central committee. This central committee was designed as the Central Committee for World Peace. It was the organization through which indoctrination, interrogation, and propaganda were implemented. As a matter of fact, the Central Committee for World Peace was the responsible agent for the program. It was located in Pyongyang, North Korea, the capital of the North Korean People's Government.

Senator MCCARTHY. By the North Korean People's Government you mean the Communist Government?

Captain CUMBY. The Communist Government; yes, sir. This central committee was made up of prisoners, United Nations prisoners. As far as the area of responsibility was concerned, it was divided into 2 major sections, 1 section for indoctrination, and 1 section for propaganda. This central committee gave the orders, gave the direction, and gave the instructions for all activity going down as far as the squad.

Mr. KENNEDY. What do you mean by "activity"? Is that for propaganda?

Captain CUMBY. For propaganda, for indoctrination. For example

Mr. KENNEDY. I understand that was run by the prisoners themselves?

Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Specifically who were the officers in charge?
Captain CUMBY. There were two officers.

Mr. KENNEDY. American officers?

Captain CUMBY. American officers; yes, sir; one in charge of propaganda, another one in charge of indoctrination.

Mr. KENNEDY. What were their ranks?

Captain CUMBY. They were lieutenant colonels when they came back.

Mr. KENNEDY. They were in charge of distributing the propaganda through the prison camps of North Korea?

Captain CUMBY. The central committee was a front. They had the prison command. Over here they had this separate organization, the Central Committee for World Peace, which was nothing more than a front. Through this front they operated.

Mr. KENNEDY. Let me see if I understand it. That was the front made up of prisoners?

Captain CUMBY. That was the front made up of prisoners.

Mr. KENNEDY. They took their instructions from a Chinese? Captain CUMBY. They took their instructions from a Chinese, and above the Chinese was again this Russian officer who served as liaison, who told them precisely what to do. The Chinese told the Americans precisely what to do, and that is the way it went.

The CHAIRMAN. Actually the Russian officer was running it?
Captain CUMBY. He was running the show, yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Then the advice as to how to turn the propaganda so it would be more interesting to the West was given by the Australian newspaperman and the English newspaperman, is that correct?

Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. What did the American officers do?
Captain CUMBY. Sir, they were in charge of a committee.

The CHAIRMAN. That is, a front committee?

Captain CUMBY. That was the front, the Central Committee for World Peace.

The CHAIRMAN. That committee was composed of prisoners?
Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Apparently as a front it was directing the activities?

Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. That was to make it more impressive?

Captain CUMBY. It directed the activities, and it was more effective because they knew the minds and the attitudes and the mores and the culture. The stuff would come from the GHQ to the central committee. The central committee would work it over, would give it the Western slant with the assistance of Burchett. From the central committee it would go down to the camp committee, which is another level. That camp committee would further modify that stuff to make it appealing to those in the camp. Leaving the camp committee it would go down to the company committee, which would further modify it to appeal to the people in the company. In the case of the early days of it, all prisoners were segregated, so they tailored their material to appeal to that particular national group, racial group, or what

have you.

When it left the company committee it was further broken down. It was broken down and forwarded to the squad committee.

So what you had, Senator McClellan, was one committee superimposed on another right on up to the very top. It even went further than that. I am trying to explain the organization of it.