Captain CUMBY. It has been a policy in the services that all men are briefed prior to their departure overseas, but, Senator McClellan, this is something that the Army has never faced and the Air Force has never faced and the Navy never faced anything like this in North Korea.

The CHAIRMAN. It was not anticipated and therefore we had made no special preparation for it. Is that correct?

Captain CUMBY. I am not qualified to say that we didn't make any preparation for it, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Not having anticipated it, obviously we could not very well prepare for it.

Captain CUMBY. I know this uncivilized treatment, I know this type of enemy that is characteristic of the Chinese Communists and the North Koreans, I know that the United States Army has never faced anything like that before.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, we had never experienced anything like it before.

Captain CUMBY. No, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Now we have had the experience.

Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. When we come to the proper time in the hearingI do not know whether you can comment on it-what are we doing now? May I just ask, are we taking some action now?

Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir; absolutely, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. That may be more proper at the conclusion of the other basic information that we are getting. So you may proceed. I think it is of great interest to all of us, to all Americans, as this story is revealed and unfolded here, to have some assurance and be satisfied that we are now at least counteracting that and fortifying our troops so as to prevent them from being so vulnerable as they were possibly when confronted with this unexpectedly without any previous anticipation of it.

You may go ahead with your basic information.

Captain CUMBY. I was speaking about the indoctrination, this vicious and willful attack against Americanism, everything American. The idea of the Communists during this indoctrination, in my opinion, was not to indoctrinate every American prisoner as a dyed-in-the-wool Communist. I think they had two objectives. I think the first objective was to indoctrinate a small number of prisoners, hard core if you wish to call them that. I think their second objective was to so shake the confidence and loyalties of another large number that when they returned they would probably be less opposed to communism as such. This small group that they desired to indoctrinate constituted the leadership of the POW's who cooperated during their captivity. Mr. KENNEDY. Do you think their program was a success, Captain? Captain CUMBY. Mr. Kennedy, I think it was; yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. Captain, after the compulsory attendance at these lectures for a period of approximately a year, did they then make attendance at these lectures and these study groups voluntary?

Captain CUMBY. No, sir. When the indoctrination started in the spring of 1951 it was a compulsory thing. Everybody had to attend the lectures. It ran for about a year. After they had covered those 12 courses, what they called the 12 phases, it was no longer required. No one was required to continue to attend the lectures.

Mr. KENNEDY. The lectures continued, nevertheless, did they not? Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. From the study that you have made and from the figures that you have, approximately how many of the prisoners continued to attend lectures even though they were not forced to attend them?

Captain CUMBY. Approximately one-third.

Mr. KENNEDY. Approximately a third continued to attend the lectures?

Captain CUMBY. Approximately one-third continued to attend the lectures after the Chinese said that was no longer required.

Mr. KENNEDY. These are the lectures you have been describing here as being so viciously anti-American and teaching that the war in Korea was started by the United States and that the North Koreans and the Chinese and the Communists generally were peace-loving people, is that right?

Captain CUMBY. Some of that and related questions, yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. After it became voluntary, still a third of the American prisoners continued to attend those lectures?

Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you think they may have been urged to attend by that hard core element that had been developed?

Captain CUMBY. The whole thing was a conspiracy, Senator. When they reached the tenth course or the ninth course they said they were going to suspend them and this was going to be something of a lenient treatment move on the part of the Chinese. But those who had been trained, those serious individuals, were directed and advised by the Chinese to continue the lectures. When they contined them after it was no longer compulsory by the Chinese, the Chinese did not assume responsibility for their attending. They said then that is the will of the people, the will of the prisoners.

The CHAIRMAN. Before they made it voluntary and not compulsory they had already indoctrinated and they thought at least they had a hard core element in that camp?

Captain CUMBY. I think they felt after a year of indoctrination that they had just about accomplished part of their purpose, that is, to get a few hard core people, if you wish to use that term.

The CHAIRMAN. I do not know, but it occurs to me that after they had some of our prisoners indoctrinated, that they had gone over, so to speak, to the Communist faith, obviously in their voluntary program they relied upon that hard core element within our prisoners to encourage and promote their attendance.

Captain CUMBY. Precisely.

The CHAIRMAN. So it was not necessary. I mean they could get a great deal of results without making it compulsory, making it appear they were coming voluntarily?

Captain CUMBY. Absolutely.

Mr. KENNEDY. Captain, the one-third figure has some significance, has it not, in that it shows approximately the percentage of the prisoners who accepted in some measure at least the Communist teachings? Captain CUMBY. Mr. Kennedy, this number business

Mr. KENNEDY. What does it mean to you, Captain? I will let you put it in your words. What does it mean to you that a third of the

prisoners continued to go to lectures after it became voluntary rather than compulsory?

Captain CUMBY. It means that apparently they wanted to attend the lectures.

Mr. KENNEDY. Does it have any further significance to you? I am not trying to get out some figure that is going to be critical, but I think if we are to understand this whole problem and understand the effectiveness of what the Communists did during this period we might as well find out what the facts were and then we can all better adjust ourselves and decide what we are going to do.

Captain CUMBY. If they terminated the indoctrination program in the spring of 1952 and roughly one-third continued to attend the program, I have only one conclusion, that they were cooperators, collaborators, or whatever you want to call them, in some degree or other, if you want my personal opinion. I have always felt very strongly about this whole thing. If you want my personal opinion, I would say that they were cooperators, collaborators, or whatever the term that you want to use, in one degree or another. They might not have been a leader. They might not have made speeches. But the fact that they continued to give their presence to a program that was designed for one purpose and one purpose only, to discredit our country, I have no opinion other than that they were collaborators, cooperators, or whatever you want to call them.

Mr. KENNEDY. Captain, during the period of time when these two newspaper men, one from Great Britain and the other from Australia, were present were they seen frequently around the prison camps lecturing to the prisoners?

Captain CUMBY. They were part of the command, Mr. Kennedy. They had free run of the camp. They even interrogated Americans. Mr. KENNEDY. They did some of the interrogation themselves? Captain CUMBY. They did some of the interrogation.

Mr. KENNEDY. They were there as newspapermen from other countries, is that correct?

Captain CUMBY. They were there as newspapermen allegedly, but I don't think there is any question as to what ideology either one of them embraced. They were part of the command. They were part and parcel of it. They conducted interrogations. In many instances they talked to Americans, and westerners could talk much better than the Chinese. They assumed that responsibility. They were VIP's as one prisoner told me. They were VIP's. They were treated as such. They had houses near the headquarters. One was married to a Chinese and he had his family living right there within the area of the GHQ. Mr. KENNEDY. It is also true since they were seen frequently and played a frequent part, there were Russians present at many of the camps and they were in evidence?

Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir.

Mr. KENNEDY. The individuals you talked to, the prisoners you have talked to who came back and the files that you have examined have led you to the conclusion as to the presence of the Russians commanding this whole system?

Captain CUMBY. That is the impression I got. It was more than an impression. I consider it factual. All the information we have we got from the people who were there and they said they saw them.

Some of the people who gave the information I have the utmost faith in.

Mr. KENNEDY. You reached the conclusion that this was a system which was directed from Russia; implemented by the Chinese, but directed from Russia?

Captain CUMBY. Yes, sir. In January 1954 I interviewed a man who left that original 23. I talked with him for a couple of hours every day for about a month. There are two other officers in this room who joined me on certain occasions. This man was as high as you could go in that setup. in that setup. He was the undisputed leader of the 23 who elected to remain in North Korea.

Mr. KENNEDY. I think his name has come out before. I do not think there is any problem. Would you name him?

Captain CUMBY. I beg your pardon?

Mr. KENNEDY. Would you name him?

Captain CUMBY. Claude Batchelor. He was the elected or appointed leader by the Chinese to lead the 21 Americans and 1 British in this nonvoluntary repatriation. He was called by the Chinese a young Lenin. They said he had a mass line of 95. He was on the inside of this organization for more than two years and a half. He brought the group into the neutral zone in North Korea. He knew all about it. He told me that if the Soviet Union had wanted to stop the war they could have stopped it, but he said why stop it? There is a purpose behind it. He told me that it was as common to see Russian officers in the headquarters as it was to see other prisoners working there, and the Chinese were as obedient to the Russian officers, more so than a United Nations prisoner was to his captor.

He not only told me this. He told me this at the public trial. This is public information.

He also told me something else that didn't register at the time that I talked to him because I had never heard of the name, the name Khrushchev. When he was relating how they were required to virtually memorize the works and the histories of Russian Communists, Stalin, Malenkov, Lenin, Khrushchev, which at the time didn't register.

He mentioned this name Khrushchev. He said—this is according to my raw notes-he was one of the five most powerful men in the Soviet Union at that time. That is the same man who is now downgrading Stalin.

To come back, this man told me that there was no question that the war in Korea was directed by Moscow, that there was no question that the armistice talks dragged out because that was the way the Russians wanted them, that they didn't intend to sign any armistice agreement within the first period of time that they indicated. He also told me when they came into the neutral zone it was nothing more than a formality, that they had no intention of requesting repatriation. He escaped out of fear of his life and so did the other one.

To answer your question as to the relationship of the Korean conflict with Soviet Russia, I don't think there is any doubt.

Mr. KENNEDY. Captain, on these prisoners who became susceptible to Communist propaganda, would you say that the methods used to get them was characterized by brutality or not?

Captain CUMBY. No, sir, Mr. Kennedy, I don't think the interrogation, I don't think the indoctrination was characterized by brutality or by torture.

Mr. KENNEDY. Again I would like to have your opinion on the high percentage, according to the study that you have made, who accepted in some degree the Communist teachings, the high percentage of American prisoners. Do you think that that was due to something that can be remedied, perhaps not in the Army but otherwise? Do you have any feelings about how an individual can be prepared for the type of treatment that these people received, whether it was interrogation or indoctrination or whatever they had to undergo?

Captain CUMBY. I subscribe to Dr. Wolff's explanation of this morning when he said knowledge of this stuff, knowledge of this nonsense, knowledge of the propaganda, an understanding of it. I think if we have that it will prove a very excellent defense.

Mr. KENNEDY. So that would not be a responsibility merely of the military services but must be a responsibility of the schools and elsewhere, is that correct?

Captain CUMBY. We get a man after he has reached maturity. Of course, the Army doesn't have the average soldier for more than 2 or 3 years. I don't subscribe to the idea that it is the sole responsibility of the Army to remake an individual once he has come into the Army. The Army can try to revitalize some of his home training or some of his other characteristics, but to say that it is the sole responsibility of the military services to so indoctrinate a man in some of the fundamentals of Americanism, I don't think it is wholly the job of the Army. Mr. KENNEDY. Do you have any views as to what might be done in this field, Captain?

Captain CUMBY. I stand on and support our program, which is not in the area of this discussion today as far as the military is concerned. Mr. KENNEDY. From the study that you made do you feel that the degree of collaboration or cooperation with the Communists by American prisoners was unusually high or was disturbingly high?

Captain CUMBY. Would you repeat that again, sir?

Mr. KENNEDY. Do you feel from the study that you have made of the various records that the degree of cooperation or collaboration with the Communists by American prisoners was disturbingly high? Captain CUMBY. This is my personal opinion. I think if one American collaborates with the enemy it is too high.

Mr. KENNEDY. We can't have perfection certainly, but based on the record that you have studied of the prisoners who came back, what is your impression as to the success of the Communists in this field and whether the rate of collaboration or cooperation with the Communists was disturbingly high.

Captain CUMBY. I would be naive to say that their indoctrination program was not successful. I would be very naive to say that their propaganda was not effective.

The CHAIRMAN. May the Chair interrupt for a moment now to make the record clear. From the time of the recess of the committee earlier this afternoon you have been making statements not under oath because we did not have a quorum of the committee present for the purpose of hearing testimony under oath. The Chair will now ask the captain, in view of the fact that a quorum is now present, if the