Senator BENNETT. I would have to make the point, Mr. Chairman, that your chance to get to the television and turn the spot off is less than if you have a 15-minute program.

Senator WILLIAMS. That gets back to the enthusiastic response that I am getting from all over on my proposal to cut down the length of these campaigns and confine them to just 5 or 6 weeks, not to exceed that. What would be your recommendation in that connection? Or do you care to comment?

Mr. GREENBURG. Well, certainly, I am afraid I have no comment from the standpoint of the Commission. The Commission certainly has not considered or taken any position on that. I do not know that they would even consider it would be appropriate for the Commission to do so, Senator.

Senator WILLIAMS. I understood that one of the gentlemen gave some figures a moment ago as to the amount that was spent in 1964 for spots and for other types of advertising during the 1964 campaign. Do you have available a full amount of advertising, both by the national committees and by other political committees, that was paid out for television and radio during the year 1964? Do you have that? During the campaign year, I mean?

Mr. SCHATZOW. Yes, sir. The figures we have are not figures which reflect the total expenditures on television and radio. The figures we have are the receipts by the television stations and the networks. There is, of course, an additional amount which may have been spent on the production of programs or on the production of spots which we would not have.

Senator WILLIAMS. I was not speaking of that. Do you have a breakdown as to how much was spent by the different parties or the different committees? If you do not have that here today would you furnish that for the record at this point?

Mr. SCHATZOW. All right, we can submit for the record-I have with me a copy of our report on the 1964 election. We do not have it by committees, we have it by parties; that is, the time that was bought on behalf of Republican candidates or supporters and the time that was bought by Democrats.

Senator WILLIAMS. That would be all right. I do not know whether there was some extra time that was bought by an independent committee, some committee operating independently of either of the two parties. Would you have that also? For political purposes, I am speaking of.

Mr. SCHATZOW. We would have it. If it were in support of a Republican candidate, it would be reflected under Republican.

Senator WILLIAMS. Do you have it broken down as to how much was actually purchased and paid for by the national committee or the State committees or by some committee that was operated independent of the Republican Party and its supporters. Do you have a breakdown of that?

Mr. SCHATZOW. No, sir, we do not have any information on the actual source of the funds.

Senator WILLIAMS. Well, could you get that for us?

Mr. SCHATZOW. I do not believe so. The only way we could get it would be by a questionnaire to the individual stations and networks. Senator WILLIAMS. Well, what I was figuring, you do not get a total unless you have something to add from four or five committees.

If you are going to add them up, and you got the total, there must be some figures around somewhere that show how you arrived at the total. You do not pull it out of the air. You got the total by adding up the subdivisions. I am wondering, are those subtotals available?

Mr. SCHATZOW. The point is, Senator, we get our information from the stations and we did not ask them to break it down in terms of whether they got it from committees or the party, but rather by party in the sense of whether it was paid for, a program, with a Republican candidate appearing or supporter of a Republican candidate.

Senator WILLIAMS. But that would not show how much was spent, you might say, by the national committee in the presidential race or how much of that may be shown by the candidate for the House or the Senate, or the State committee for the Republican or Democratic Party in the State?

Mr. SCHATZOW. We do get separate figures for the money that was spent for the presidential and vice-presidential campaigns. But again, I must say we did not get it in terms of who spent the money actually. But we do have figures for that and of the total amount that was spent on television and radio, in 1964, 37 percent of that total was spent in connection with the presidential and vice-presidential elections.

Senator WILLIAMS. You will give us what breakdown you have? Mr. SCHATZow. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. If I may interrupt, I just want to say that I think that is a good idea and while we are at it, I think you ought to give us such cooperation as you can in helping us determine how much money was spent on radio and television in that 1964 campaign, including the money that was spent by independents such as myself. In my own State, I got carried away by my enthusiasm in the late innings and went out and spent about $10,000 through an advertising firm to buy time and make a statewide broadcast. I urged some of my friends to do likewise. Those kinds of things I would hope all would be shown so we could find what the production cost was so we could see what was actually spent. It seems to me we could get it better through your Commission. I would like to find out what was actually spent for this. Do you think you could find out?

Mr. SCHATZOW. May I submit for the record, Mr. Chairman, our report? I think that has all the information you and Senator Williams

want.

(The report referred to "Survey of Political Broadcasting-Primary and General Election Campaigns of 1964", was made a part of the official files of the Committee.)

The CHAIRMAN. We will accept that. If it does not have the information we want, we will ask for it.

You do not have information on production time?

Mr. SCHATZOW. It is included in our figures if this was done by the station or the network. But if it were done by an independent producer and generally in the case of spot announcements, that is the way it is done we would not have those production or distribution

costs.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me ask you, would your figure reflect that program that I put on in Louisiana, does it reflect the time that was sold on behalf of the Democrats?

Mr. SCHATZow. It would be included.

The CHAIRMAN. Would that show whether that was approved by the candidate or not, or whether it was Senator Long who bought the time?

Mr. SCHATZOW. No.

The CHAIRMAN. So just finding what was done by third parties and independent committees, those figures might not reflect that?

Mr. SCHATZOW. It would show the money that was spent in behalf of third party candidates. It would not show by whom it was spent. The CHAIRMAN. I see. You say that in that year, 37.5 percent was spent by persons seeking to influence the outcome of the presidential campaign?

Mr. SCHATZOW. Thirty-seven percent of the total that was spent that year was spent in connection with the presidential and vice presidential campaign.

The CHAIRMAN. That is radio and television?

Mr. SCHATZOw. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Does that include advertising in the papers that this program was going to be heard?

Mr. SCHATZOw. No; that would not include that.

The CHAIRMAN. Would that include a television station ad on the debate?

Mr. SCHATZOw. No, sir. The total in the 1964 campaign was $34.6 million. That includes primary and general elections.

The CHAIRMAN. Of that, about $11 million was spent, I take itMr. SCHATZOW. $12.8 million was spent in connection with the presidential and vice-presidential campaign.

The CHAIRMAN. I want to know on this Alexander report, whose best information, it seems to me, came from the Republican Party documentation-these are Republican campaign expenditures made by the committees. It has been referred to so many times; TV and radio time, $4,542,000. TV and radio production, $1,066,484, for a total of about $5,600,000.

Now, that is less than half the amount spent in presidential campaigns. What would your breakdown indicate that the differential between the two parties was on that $12 million?

Mr. SCHATZOW. On the presidential?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. May I say that I wish the Democratic Committee had reported in the same depth the Republican Party reported on that occasion, because it would have been very helpful.

Senator WILLIAMS. They will be testifying a little later today, and we can ask them just how much was spent and get it in the record. If they are going to ask for direct appropriations, they certainly must know how much they spent. Certainly, there is no need of giving them more than they need. So I would say the two committees should furnish us this information.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you mind telling us what the answer to the question is that I asked now?

Mr. SCHATZOW. I do not have, Senator, the breakdown as far as the money that was spent with the networks. But with respect to what was spent with individual stations, in the total for both the primary and general election, it was $3.8 million for the Republicans, $2.1 million for the Democrats.

The CHAIRMAN. But you do not have the network expenditure? Mr. SCHATZow. This is for television.

· The CHAIRMAN. Will you yield for a moment?

That gets back to the point. You have $3.8 million spent by the Republicans in one place and $2.1 million for the Democrats in another and you come up with a total of $12.8 million. I want to know where you got it from, because somebody did not reach into the air to get that differential. If they did, I think we would like to know. I think it is well to ask where they got this breakdown. I do not understand where you got $12.8 million if you do not have something to add up to it. Maybe you do, but they did not when I went to school.

Mr. SCHATZOW. This is just for television and just for television stations. The total spent with the networks in the 1964 campaign. was $4.2 million.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the total?

Mr. SCHATZOW. The total spent with the networks.

Senator WILLIAMS. 4.2?

Mr. SCHATZOW. That is right, that is radio and television.
The CHAIRMAN. Can you break that down?

you.

Mr. SCHATZOW. I am sorry, we cannot. We can supply that for
The CHAIRMAN. If you can get it for us, please do that.
Senator WILLIAMS. Well, the 3.8 includes radio and television; is

that correct? And 2.1 is the amount for the Democrats?
Mr. SCHATZOW. No; that is just television stations.

Senator WILLIAMS. The reason I asked that, $4.2 million for the networks, and adding that to the other figures you gave, you come up with $10.1 million. We are still a million seven out of the way.

Mr. SCHATZOw. That is right.

Senator WILLIAMS. Where did that come from?

Mr. SCHATZOw. That would be radio, sir.

Senator WILLIAMS. To save the time of the committee, you are furnishing that report to the committee?

Mr. SCHATZOw. Right.

Senator WILLIAMS. Now, I think you understand the questions we raised here that we would like to have answers for, do you not? Mr. SCHATZOw. Yes.

Senator WILLIAMS. Would you go through this report and furnish us a simple layman's answer to these questions? Because it has been my experience that I have a little difficulty understanding those voluminous reports. That one may be clear, but would you go through and furnish for the record a simple statement of explanation with the best breakdown that you have for these various expenditures? Mr. SCHATZOW. Yes, sir, we would be glad to.

The CHAIRMAN. That is fine. If you can break those figures down for us, I think it will be very helpful and enlightening. (The information referred to follows:)

The Commission directed a questionnaire to radio and television stations and networks requesting information concerning their political broadcast activities' during the Primary and General Election campaigns of 1964. The information received was summarized and analyzed in the report, "Survey of Political Broadcasting Primary and General Election Campaigns of 1964" which has been submitted for the record. Table 1 of that report shows a breakdown of the $34.6 million representing total charges for political broadcasts in 1964. The table shown below provides a similar breakdown of the $12.8 million (out of the total of $34.6 million) which represents the total charges for political broadcasts relating to the Presidential and Vice-Presidential contests. The figures shown in

the table in the report and in the following table represent the amounts received by radio and television networks and stations for political broadcasts and political announcements. They do not include any amounts that may have been spent for the production or distribution of programs or announcements prepared by other than stations or networks. Nor do they include any amounts that may have been spent for newspaper publicity relating to such programs or announcements. The breakdown of charges by party (i.e., Republican, Democratic, and other) represents the amounts paid to networks and stations for time or announcements in behalf of candidates of the party indicated. We do not have any information which would distinguish between the amounts paid by the candidate or his party on the one hand and the amounts paid by any individual, or committee, or group supporting the candidate on the other hand.

Total charges1 for political broadcasts relating to candidacy for President and Vice President: 1964

Senator WILLIAMS. I understand that you have no authority to fix rates on advertising. Do you fix or control the amount of time that will be allocated for commercials?

Mr. GREENBURG. No, sir, the Commission does not fix the rates. Senator WILLIAMS. The Commission does not fix any control whatever over the amount of advertising?

Mr. GREENBURG. The Commission does not have any regulation with respect to the amount of time which stations may have, the percentage of time, say, in an hour that they may devote to commercials.

Senator WILLIAMS. You have no such authority to control that time? Or do you just not exercise the authority?

Mr. GREENBURG. I think the Commission does have certain authority in this field. It has not been exercised in a way to prescribe any regulations.

Senator WILLIAMS. Then, you do have the authority, but you have just not exercised it?

Does the Commission obtain any records from these various television and radio stations as to the rates that they are charging for advertising? Do they file with you a report as to their rates or as to their income from advertising sources?

Mr. RAWSON. Senator Williams, the television rate schedules are published by mostly all the television stations as standard rate data.