Mr. KUNZIG. Well, now, do you know, if it lies within your knowledge, whether you were cleared as a result of any investigation to handle classified matter?

Mr. KUNZIG. Did you handle any classified matter while employed in the Hydrographic Office?

Miss GRIER. We had confidential materials in our office; yes. Do you mean handle? I saw them around; yes.

Mr. Kunzig. You saw them around?

Miss GRIER. Yes.

Mr. KUNZIG. I see.

Miss GRIER. The reports were

Mr. KUNZIG. You said you left the employ of the Navy Department as a result of reduction of force?

Miss GRIER. I did.

Mr. KUNZIG. What type of work was it that you did when you were working for the Arctic Institute of North America?

Miss GRIER. Bibliographic work.

Mr. MOULDER. Working where?

I can't hear the testimony.

Mr. VELDE. I would appreciate it very much

Mr. MOULDER. Would you speak a little louder

Mr. VELDE. Maybe you can get a little closer to the microphoneMr. MOULDER. Or else do that.

Mr. VELDE. Because it is very difficult for us to hear. The accoustics in this room are extremely bad.

Mr. KUNZIG. I will repeat the question, Miss Grier.

With respect to your employment by the Arctic Institute of North America, what type of work did you do there?

Miss GRIER. I was a bibliographer and worked with research materials on all branches of science-in fact, all branches of the arctic. Mr. VELDE. Thank you. That is much better.

Mr. KUNZIG. While you were employed in this particular work, where did you physically do your work?

Miss GRIER. Mostly in the collection of libraries of this city, the collection of famous collection of the Library of Congress itself, and in other libraries-wholly scientific material, since that is my branch of the work

Mr. KUNZIG. I see.

Miss GRIER. Throughout the city, but also in other parts of the east coast-New York Public Library, American Museum of Natural History

Mr. KUNZIG. Did you have a desk assigned to you at the Library of Congress or in the Library of Congress during that period? Miss GRIER. Yes; our unit had study space there.

Mr. KUNZIG. I see.

If you can state so, would you tell how you obtained your present position?

Miss GRIER. By knowledge of the Geological Society of my experience as a bibliographer. They had been looking for somebody to fill a vacancy on their staff for some number of months.

Mr. MOULDER. What is her present position?

I haven't learned that yet.

Mr. KUNZIG. Would you repeat again your present position?
Miss GRIER. Yes.

Mr. KUNZIG. It is hard to hear.

Miss GRIER. I am now a bibliographer for the Geological Society of America. We issue an annual volume on all of abstracts and an index volume of literature on geology, exclusive of this North American Continent, foreign material and other materials dealing with geology not in the North American Continent. An annual volume is published by them, and I am on that staff as a abstractor and bibliographer.

Mr. MOULDER. Did I understand counsel to ask if a subpena had been served upon you here in Washington in room so-and-so of the Department of Interior?

Mr. KUNZIG. We are coming to that.

Mr. MOULDER. Very well.

Mr. KUNZIG. Would you tell the committee, Miss Grier, whom you used as references in applying for this position that you presently hold?

Miss GRIER. I believe that they wanted to know the people with whom I had been working, but did know them. I am afraid I don't know whom I gave as personal references-probably people I worked with here in the city.

Mr. KUNZIG. Now, isn't it correct that your office in which you actually and physically do this work is located in Room 1033 of the Department of Interior in the Interior Building here in Washington? Miss GRIER. That is true.

Mr. KUNZIG. Is it correct you have a Department of Interior phone on your desk, Extension 3860?

Miss GRIER. The phone for the far end of the reading room in the Geological Survey Library is in that part of the room where I am.

Mr. KUNZIG. Well, would you explain to the committee the circumstances under which you have received the use of this desk and the phone?

Miss GRIER. I believe a cooperative arrangement of many years has existed between the Geological Society of America, which publishes this set of annual volumes, and the Geological Survey whereby the staff which abstracts and then compiles a volume may use the incoming journals and books received by the Geological Survey Library. That's handled in a routine way so that all material coming in can be covered by the staff.

Mr. KUNZIG. Well, now, you, working there, have access to the material in the library; is that correct?

Miss GRIER. Yes; the open material.

Mr. KUNZIG. Oh, is there closed material?

Miss GRIER. Generally so. Within the building, I imagine so. Mr. SCHERER. I didn't-pardon me, Mr. Kunzig-hear your last question that time.

Mr. KUNZIG. I am sorry.

My question was whether there was closed or confidential material in that library.

Miss GRIER. I amagine so. I don't know. I do not know because we only handle that which comes in over the truck for the use of the people who work and study there.

Mr. KUNZIG. Before you came to Washington, Miss Grier, you stated, I believe, you were a resident of Seattle; is that correct? Miss GRIER. That is right.

Mr. KUNZIG. Seattle, Wash.?

Miss GRIER. Yes.

Mr. KUNZIG. While you were residing at Seattle, Wash., were you acquainted with an individual known as Andrew Remes-R-e-m-e-s? I may not be pronouncing it correctly. Remes, I believe you pronounce it.

acqu

Miss GRIER. I believe I must decline to answer that question, sir. Mr. KUNZIG. For what reason?

Miss GRIER. Standing upon my privileges under the Constitution, particularly the fifth amendment.

Mr. KUNZIG. Isn't it true that Andrew Remes was a Communist Party candidate in Seattle for county commissioner in 1942?

Miss GRIER. I must decline to answer that on the same grounds, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. If I showed you an issue of the Daily Worker of October 25, 1942, an article written by Jean Frankfeld-F-r-a-n-kf-e-l-d-special to the Worker, date line Seattle, with the heading "Seattle Communists name Remes for Commissioner"-if I showed you that article, marked "Grier Exhibit No. 1" for identification, would that refresh your memory as to whether or not you knew Mr. Remes in Seattle?

Miss GRIER. I must still decline to answer the question, sir, on the same grounds.

Mr. VELDE. Miss Grier, you keep saying you must decline to answer the question. There certainly is no compulsion that you decline to answer the question. You have the right to refuse to answer the question based on the grounds of the fifth amendment; but if you do refuse, I wish you would so state, instead of that you must decline to answer the question.

Miss GRIER. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the same grounds. Mr. KUNZIG. Isn't it a fact, Miss Grier, that you were activeactually, personally were active-in the campaign of Mr. Remes for office at that time?

Miss GRIER. I refuse to answer that question on the same grounds, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. During your residence in Seattle, Wash., were you acquainted with one Louis Weinzirl-W-e-i-n-z-i-r-l?

Miss GRIER. I am, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. Is Mr. Weinzirl related to you in any way?

Miss GRIER. He is my brother-in-law.

Mr. CLARDY. Your what?

Miss GRIER. My brother-in-law.

Mr. KUNZIG. Were you acquainted with him when he was employed in the Office of Civilian Defense in Seattle?

Miss GRIER. I was.

Mr. KUNZIG. Are you familiar with the reasons for his dismissal from this office for Communist Party activities?

Miss GRIER. I must refuse to answer that question, sir.

Mr. VELDE. Now, again, there is no compulsion.

Miss GRIER. I am sorry. I do so refuse.

Mr. CLARDY. Counsel, may I inquire is not that a matter of public record as to why the discharge took place?

Mr. KUNZIG. I believe it is publicly known in Seattle; yes, sir.

Mr. CLARDY. Well, the reason I inquired—you might address a question to her based on the matters that are known to the public at large to see whether she will refuse to answer that.

Mr. KUNZIG. Has it come within your general knowledge, then, as it has with other folks in the general public at large, that Louis Weinzirl was discharged from the Office of Civilian Defense in Seattle for subversive activities or for activities in the Communist Party?

(At this point Miss Grier conferred with Mr. Rand.) Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question, sir

Mr. CLARDY. Counsel, I have

Miss GRIER. On the same grounds.

Mr. CLARDY (continuing). A question there.

Witness, the last question was addressed to you because I wanted to have elicited an answer that could not possibly be based upon any Communist connections on your part or anything dealing with the Communist Party. We are asking a question-and I am going to repeat it in a moment-designed to inquire as to your knowledge which you alone, with other members of the public, would glean from matters that everyone knew about.

Now, I am going to ask you again: Did you not know from records published at the time as to the reason and the cause for the discharge of this person we are talking about?

Miss GRIER. Will you excuse me, please, sir?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes; you may consult with your counsel, as you have been doing.

(At this point Miss Grier conferred with Mr. Rand.)

Miss GRIER. I shall still decline, sir, to answer the question.

Mr. CLARDY. Now, Mr. Chairman, I ask that the witness be directed to answer the question because it is obvious that the defense she is attempting to erect is not a valid one, that the material that I am inquiring about is not something that could possibly incriminate her, because it is merely a question as to whether or not anything has come to her attention that was common public knowledge; and I think she should be directed and I think she should be told she is being directed to answer the question as a prelude to possible further action by this committee in the way of contempt action.

Mr. VELDE. Yes. The Chair agrees with the distinguished gentleman from Michigan. The question is very simple and the Chair can see no way which an answer of "Yes" or "No," with any explanation you want to make after you answer the question "Yes" or "No," could possibly incriminate you. So, you are directed to answer the question put to you by Mr. Clardy.

Mr. RAND. May we have the question read again, please?

Mr. CLARDY. Yes.

Mr. VELDE. Yes. Will the reporter read the question, please.

(The reporter read the question as follows: "Did you not know from records published at the time as to the reason and the cause for the discharge of this person we are talking about?")

(At this point Miss Grier conferred with Mr. Rand.)

Mr. VELDE. And the name of that person again, Mr. Counsel?

Mr. KUNZIG. Louis Weinzirl—W-e-i-n-z-i-r-l—brother-in-law of Miss Grier.

Mr. CLARDY. And before you answer, Witness, I want you to understand I am merely inquiring as to whether or not you had knowledge of something that was published and was, therefore, common knowledge. That is all I am asking.

Miss GRIER. The common knowledge of details about that situation, sir, I didn't have and don't have now because I believe I was in the city of Washington. I have heard about it from my family.

Mr. CLARDY. And having heard about it from your family, did you not learn that, as counsel has indicated in the prior questioning, his discharge was connected with Communist activities?

Mr. MOULDER. Of course, what she heard would be hearsay, Mr. Clardy.

Mr. CLARDY. Well, that makes no difference. I am inquiring as to whether that was not what she heard.

Mr. KUNZIG. Mr. Chairman, I suggest this line of questioning, with due respect to Mr. Clardy, is with regard to another person and, therefore, not particularly material in this issue.

Mr. CLARDY. Well, I beg to differ with counsel and point out I am attempting to get from this witness a clear and direct answer on the subject you were inquiring about, sir.

Mr. VELDE. Well, of course

Mr. CLARDY. I think it is important.

Mr. VELDE. We all realize this is not a court of law and the strict rules of evidence, of course, do not apply in hearings before congressional committees. However, in spite of that fact, we all know, too, as I think we are all lawyers here, that certain types of hearsay evidence are admissible in a court of law. So, I believe the question is proper and should be answered.

if

Mr. CLARDY. She, of course, may decline to answer.

We are not cutting you off from that on the constitutional grounds, you want to raise it. I am not saying it is valid or you are entitled to it, but you have the privilege of at least raising it.

Now, will you answer the question?

Mr. RAND. Do you know what the question is?

Miss GRIER. I am sorry. I had

Mr. VELDE. Can you

Mr. CLARDY. I can rephrase the question. The question is quite simple. It is based upon what you, yourself, mentioned—the knowledge coming to you from your family. Is it not true that you now know the discharge was because of Communist activities or connections on the part of the gentleman in question?

Miss GRIER. No; I do not know that, sir.

Mr. CLARDY. You do not know that?

Miss GRIER. No.

Mr. CLARDY. That is all, Counsel.

Mr. KUNZIG. During your residence in Seattle, Miss Grier, were you acquainted with Philip Frankfeld-F-r-a-n-k-f-e-l-d?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the previous grounds.

Mr. KUNZIG. Wasn't Philip Frankfeld serving as executive secretary of the northwest district committee of the Communist Party in Seattle, and didn't you know him as such?