Mr. KUNZIG. Now, Miss Grier

Mr. CLARDY. Counsel, let's bring it down to a little closer period of time. Yesterday could be as far as 24 hours ago or as close a time as 12 hours ago. Let's see if she was a member 12 hours ago.

Will you ask that question?

I am suggesting.

Mr. KUNZIG. All right, sir.

Were you a member of the Communist Party 12 hours ago?
Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question.

Mr. MOULDER. Why not say 5 minutes ago, because she is declining for reasons that are leading?

Mr. KUNZIG. Prior to coming into this room to testify, were you a member of the Communist Party?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question too, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. But now you are not a member?

Miss GRIER. I am not.

Mr. KUNZIG. Do you want me to continue, sir?

Mr. VELDE. I must say for the record the testimony of the record is a little bit ridiculous in this matter she refuses to answer.

Mr. KUNZIG. Apparently entering this room has an amazing effect. Excuse me, sir.

Mr. VELDE. Did you hear the letter I read into the record from the California housewife?

Miss GRIER. I did, Mr. Velde.

Mr. VELDE. Did that in any way impress you as to your recent testimony concerning your denial of membership in the Communist Party?

Miss GRIER. I have refused to answer such questions, sir, without implication.

Mr. VELDE. Well, now, for your benefit-I realize you have counsel here I might tell you that the committee is authorized by the House of Representatives to make investigations relative to subversive activities, subversive propaganda, in the United States, and to report to Congress, and report to the American people as well, for the purposes of remedial legislation.

The committee is out to ascertain facts relative to subversion in an objective sort of way.

As expressed in this letter which I read into the record, members of the committee and I think that is true of the greatest majority of the House of Representatives are very vitally concerned with subversive activities in this country, and they are very forgiving, and especially in the cases of Communist Party members who have knowledge of facts relative to subversion.

In that capacity, while you haven't admitted you were a member of the Communist Party at one time, the inference is plain. In that capacity as a member, or a former member, of the Communist Party, you could do a great service for your country if you would give us the information relative to the activities of yourself and others who were in the Communist Party with you, if you were in the Communist Party.

In view of that statement, would you care now to say whether you have ever been a member of the Communist Party?

Miss GRIER. I decline, sir, to answer the question.

Mr. KUNZIG. May I proceed, sir?

Mr. VELDE. Proceed.

Mr. KUNZIG. Miss Grier, you have been identified to this committee as a member of the Communist Party assigned to an underground Navy Department cell during your employment by the Navy, and also by the Air Force. Do you wish to confirm or deny that identification at this time?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer, sir, on the same grounds.

Mr. VELDE. Let the record show that whenever the witness declines to answer and I think this is agreeable with the witness and with counsel that it is on the grounds of the fifth amendment

Mr. CLARDY. If she——

Mr. VELDE. And other constitutional grounds.

Mr. CLARDY. If she should inadvertently fail to mention it, she has that protection.

Mr. RAND. Thank you very much.

Mr. KUNZIG. It has been further stated by an informant and confidential investigator that you served for a while in 1945 as actually the chairman of this underground cell in the Navy Department; is that correct?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. Our information reveals that you terminated your membership in this underground cell in 1947. Do you care to affirm or deny that statement?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. Miss Grier, to go back for just a moment to this Oceanographic Unit, and so forth, what type of work did you prepare or what type of documents did you prepare which were to be used by the Armed Forces of the United States?

Miss GRIER. I was

Are you speaking of the unit, sir, or me?

Mr. KUNZIG. You, yourself, and the unit, too.

Miss GRIER. Because I did not write reports.

Mr. KUNZIG. Well

Miss GRIER. I mention this because

Mr. KUNZIG. Prepared the material.

Miss GRIER. I am a librarian and I found the material.

Mr. KUNZIG. You found the material?

Miss GRIER. They used the material-other people used the material-and wrote the reports.

Mr. KUNZIG. What type of work was that? What type of reports were they subjects?

Mr. VELDE. Well, now, Mr. Counsel, you are probably getting into the realm of classified information which must not be made public. I believe we will declare a recess for 5 minutes at this time. The committee will be in recess for 5 minutes.

(Whereupon, at 11:30 a. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at 11:35 a. m.)

(The hearing reconvened at 11:39 a. m.)

Mr. VELDE. The committee will be in order. Do you have any questions, Mr. Moulder?

Mr. MOULDER. Miss Grier, my colleague Mr. Scherer has asked a number of witnesses this question and I want to direct this question to

you. I think the testimony and your appearance before the committee lays a firm foundation and basis for this question.

Have you at any time ever been employed as an agent for any foreign government?

Miss GRIER. I have not, nor would I.

Mr. VELDE. In line with that question, have you ever paid any money to or received any money from the Communist Party of the United States?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. VELDE. Have you ever acted as an agent in any capacity or as an employee for the Communist Party of the United States?

Miss GRIER. What was the first part of that question, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. VELDE. Did you ever act in any capacity as an agent or otherwise for the Communist Party of the United States?

(At this point Miss Grier conferred with Mr. Rand.) Miss GRIER. I will decline to answer that, sir.

Mr. VELDE. In other words, Miss Grier, the Communist Party of the United States is certainly a part and parcel of Soviet Russia and under the direction of Soviet Russia. That fact has been proven time and time again. So, while you say you were not an agent and acting for Soviet Russia if you were a member of the Communist Party, it might well be concluded that you were in that capacity an agent of the Soviet Union.

Mr. RAND. Is there a question, Mr. Velde? I didn't get the question, I am sorry.

Mr. MOULDER. In answer to my question you said you were not ever employed as an agent. You denied that and stated you were not employed by any foreign government. Wasn't that your answer?

Miss GRIER. It was indeed, sir.

Mr. MOULDER. In answer to the chairman's question as to whether or not you had ever received any compensation or money for any services rendered in that respect, you declined to answer. I cannot understand the confiict. On the one hand you decline to answer and on the other you did answer.

Miss GRIER. Would you care to read the question, because that is not the way I remember the question.

Mr. VELDE. Which question are you referring to?

Miss GRIER. Yours, Mr. Velde, because Mr. Moulder has said that the question asked had been whether I had ever received any moneys. Would you please read it.

Mr. VELDE. I asked you several questions with reference to your employment by the Communist Party of the United States and made an affirmative statement that it has been proven any number of times that the Communist Party is an agent of the Soviet Union.

With that in mind, will you now say that you are or are not or never have been an agent for the Soviet Government?

Miss GRIER. I would say emphatically that I have never been, nor would I be.

Mr. VELDE. Do you believe that the Communist Party, the American Communist Party, as I have stated, is a part of the Soviet Government and directed by the Soviet Government? Do you believe that? (At this point Miss Grier conferred with Mr. Rand.) Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. I want to go back to just one thing that was discussed prior to the recess, Miss Grier. Without going into any confidential material of any kind whatsoever, I want to get this straight for myself and for the record. As I understand it, Is it correct that you compiled material or as a researcher got material together and that that material was used officially by the armed services of the United States? Is that correct?

Miss GRIER. Should I answer?

Mr. KUNZIG. Would you answer further if you wish?

Miss GRIER. Yes, I will. Intelligence reports, the various small portions of certain types of intelligence reports put out, one small section of which was issued by the Oceanography Unit for the people who compiled it, who wrote it, who prepared these intelligence reports, I went to the library to hunt for what they might need and what I can find and hunt until I can find anything that can help them. In compiling in oceanography they need data and the data has not been organized in this country to the point where you do not need somebody who knows something about libraries to hunt for it. I went and hunted for the material and the people used it and they won the war with it.

Mr. SCHERER. You say this material has not been organized in this country?

Miss GRIER. Library materials have not been organized in this country around the science of oceanography in such a way that it can be easily obtained. Intensive research was required in order to get the material together.

Mr. SCHERER. Do you know whether they have had such organization of material in any other country?

Miss GRIER. I could go on at some length about oceanography in other countries. I am only a librarian and not an expert in oceanography. I only know about the literature on it.

Mr. SCHERER. Do you know whether or not the Soviet Government has the material organized as you say we do not have it organized here in the United States?

Miss GRIER. I know very little about the present organization because their periodicals have not been received in this country in any quantity at all since the late 1930's, so that actually I don't know something that people would like to know.

Mr. KUNZIG. To continue on with the questioning, in spite of the difficulty of the hammering in the background, you made a statement at the end of your last comment which I don't know was heard due to the difficulty with the public address system and the noise in the room. You said you got this material together and then you added the phrase at the end of your sentence "and we won the war with it." I know you don't mean solely won the war, but I take it you mean the material that you gathered was important for use by the armed

services.

Miss GRIER. Naturally so, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. Would you repeat that.

Miss GRIER. That contribution in handling material in libraries will be a modest one. Please don't misunderstand me, but I only say because I feel that librarians are quite important in this world, that when we started in fighting this war we had to use them at last because

we had to dig stuff out of the libraries in order for us to know what we were doing in parts of the world before.

There had not been depth data made by this Government or even the British Government since the middle of the 19th century, in certain sections of the South Pacific.

Mr. KUNZIG. And at least some parts of these reports were based on data which you compiled, I believe, from your being the librarian for the Oceanography Unit?

Miss GRIER. I did not compile them. They were compiled and already in print. I brought them from libraries, having found them in the libraries without having to go and use the library people, thereby letting one more person go. These units needed somebody who could go to the library and use the library themselves. That is what we did, many librarians I am sure, for the Government during that time. Mr. KUNZIG. You testified that you yourself did not prepare the actual documents later. But did you see them after they were prepared, the result?

Miss GRIER. Not in the sense of reading them. However, everyone in our unit had to mechanically collate these things.

Mr. KUNZIG. Is it true that you were the subject of a loyalty hearing during the period of your Government employment?

(At this point Miss Grier conferred with Mr. Rand.)

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. If you were the subject of a loyalty hearing, did you testify or comment at that time upon your Communist Party membership, yes or no, as to whether or not you were a member?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. Did any Government official during your term of employment with the United States Navy and Air Force, did anyone question you about your Communist Party membership?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. Did you testify at any time under oath with respect to Communist Party membership?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. Miss Grier, investigation has shown that you were the subject of a loyalty hearing in 1946.

Mr. VELDE. In which department?

Mr. KUNZIG. Of the United States Navy. And that you were at that time cleared, is that a correct statement? Would you care to affirm or deny that?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. Isn't it a fact that you were for a time suspended from duty and then restored to duty again?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question too, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. At the hearing that you had, and the investigation has shown that you had, isn't it a fact that you did not testify under oath?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question too, sir.

Mr. KUNZIG. Did you at that time deny or affirm Communist Party membership?

Miss GRIER. I decline to answer that question too.

Mr. SCHERER. Isn't it a fact, Miss Grier, that during that hearing when you were not under oath you actually denied at that time membership in the party?