Mr. HEACOCK. Chairman Velde, I entirely agree with you. I've suffered considerably from the undercurrent that has occurred for the past year and a half which hurt me. It reflected upon my loyalty since I became a member of Armed Forces of the United States, and-but I say that if I were in your position and had been in the field of antisabotage

Mr. VELDE. I'm sure you wouldn't like to be in my position.

Mr. HEACOCK. I mean your position in the Armed Forces-antisabotage and counterintelligence and found myself after the war— I would probably be engaged in somewhat similar activity; but it so happens that my experience throughout the war was in airlift-6 years of it-and when I got out and got into air transportation it seemed to me that the best function that I could perform, a patriotic function, for my country, was to try to build, against obstacles, an airlift that I know that we've got to have to fight communism throughout the world.

Mr. JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, I would like to say that I believe the YCL is certainly a proper area for investigation by this committee, in spite of the fact that it goes back quite a number of years, because perhaps no organization connected in any way with the Communist Party spawned quite the crop of espionage agents and current Communist leaders as did the YCL.

I think by finding out what went on in the YCL, who comprised its membership, how it was financed, how recruitment was carried on, we are in a much better position and the Congress will be in a much better position to know and appreciate the nature and extent of the present Communist Party which drew its leadership or which has drawn its leadership in large part from the ranks of the YCL.

Mr. VELDE. Yes; I concur with the gentleman in that statement, and I might make a little additional statement now.

The truth of the matter is the YCL, in a changed form, is presently in existence, as has been determined by this committee. It was first succeeded by the American Youth for Democracy and now has been succeeded by the Labor Youth League. That is, the group that now operates as the Labor Youth League is largely composed of membership that it got from the AYD when it was abandoned; and, similarly, when the YCL was abandoned, the AYD took over an overwhelming majority of its membership. So, actually when we go back to the YCL organization, we are actually investigating the founding of the present Labor Youth League.

Mr. CLARDY. I think I ought to point out, Mr. Chairman, something more. Most of us were not kidded or fooled into believing that it was a straightforward, upright, patriotic kind of an organization. I, for one, certainly was never taken in. I knew from the beginning that anything that had the name "Communist" tied in with it, as that outfit did, was just exactly what subsequent investigations have disclosed; and I think I am getting just a little weary of hearing the explanation given that at that time people didn't know, because they did. Most of us knew, commencing in 1917, when the Communists took over in Russia, exactly what they were. We lost a lot of boys, if you will remember, in the northern part of Russia as a result of the activities that took place then. No; I don't think I

Mr. VELDE. Well, I am inclined to concur with you in this, Mr. Clardy: I think a great number of people—I hope a great majority of

the American people-never got mixed up with the Soviet subversive organizations; but I still insist a good many American citizens did not realize the subversive nature

Mr. CLARDY. Well, most of them did.

Mr. VELDE. Or the intent of Soviet Russia in those years.

Mr. CLARDY. Most of those in recent years who have used that excuse had a pretty soft head, in my opinion.

Mr. SCHERER. It seems to me we are missing the point. The issue, it appears, is the fact that a witness some time in the past named this man here, this witness, as a president of a Young Communist League in the city of Los Angeles. He now indicates that that man was his brother. I think it is the duty of this committee to determine if there is a mistaken identity of this man-whether that is a fact and if what this man says is true, he should be cleared as far as we are able to clear him.

Mr. JACKSON. Perhaps counsel has something further.

Mr. SCHERER. Well, perhaps he has.

On the other hand, I think it would help the situation in determining if there was a mistaken identity, or a mistake in identity, if we or the staff could pursue further the question as to the brother's activities and determine whether or not it was the brother.

Mr. CLARDY. Oh, yes; in fairness to this witness

Mr. SCHERER. That is what I meant.

Mr. CLARDY. As well as to the brother.

I think we are all agreed on that.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Heacock, it is true, is it not, that you attended meetings of the Young Communist League at 224 South Spring Street, Los Angeles?

Mr. HEACOCK. I have been to that address, which was the address of the Young Communist League at the time; but I don't recall ever having attended any meeting at that address.

Mr. TAVENNER. Well, what was the occasion of your appearing at that address?

Mr. HEACOCK. Well, the YCL man would pick me up on the street there, unemployed, usually looking around for employment in the employment agencies uptown, and they had their bookstore out in front, and I knew a girl there in the office; and several occasions-but I don't believe I went into the office as far as-any further than the counter there, where I talked to these people.

Mr. TAVENNER. Now, Mr. Lou Rosser testified in executive session before this committee

Mr. SCHERER. What was that? I didn't hear your question. Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Lou Rosser testified in executive session before this committee on April 7, 1953, in Los Angeles. At that time Mr. Rosser advised

Mr. JACKSON. Will you identify Mr. Rosser, please?

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Lou Rosser is the same person referred to in the affidavit of Mr. Holther and was described in that affidavit as a Negro leader soon to become one of the chief YCL organizers in the whole country; and Mr. Rosser admitted his activity in the Young Communist League up to 1944, when he then left the Communist Party. In the course of his testimony Mr. Rosser identified the persons named by William Holther in the testimony which I read a few moments ago, and he likewise identified Mr. Holther, himself, as hav

ing been a member of that group. He also identified Amos Heacock as a member of the Communist Party and the YCL. He was then asked to elaborate on his testimony concerning Amos Heacock, where he met him, and the number of times, and what he remembered about him and Mr. Rosser's testimony was as follows:

Well, during 1936–37, when the CIO started to organize, the Communist Partythey urged its members, especially members of the Young Communist League and members of the Communist Party, to get jobs in factories and volunteer for organizers for the Communist Party, and they would become known.

I met Amos Heacock in the office of the Young Communist League. He was brought there by a member by the name of Roy Spector, who was a volunteer organizer for the steel organizing committee of the CIO, and at that time they were attempting to organize the American Can Co. Heacock was working in the American Can Co. Roy Spector had a job in the American Can Co.

Amos Heacock became a member of the downtown group of the Young Communist League and the youth unit of the Communist Party. I met him because of my job, because of the educational director of the Young Communist League and the faction

f-a-c-t-i-o-n-Mr. Chairman, the word "faction" is used in this testimony, where it is my recollection that the word "fraction" is actually used, and I think that is a typographical error. So, I will read it both ways as we come to it.

and the faction [or fraction] to organize the union and, therefore, carry the Communist line into the unions; and I met with him as a person in the youth branch of the Communist Party downtown and the YCL branch.

Question. How many occasions would you say you met Mr. Heacock in the youth group of the Communist Party-the downtown youth group?

Mr. ROSSER. Several. I knew him from 1936 to 1938, and then in 1938-the last of 1938-I went to New York to the national training school of the Communist Party, and then when I came back I didn't see much of him, I don't think, until around 1941 or 1942. I saw him for a while. I think he went into the Army. I saw him when he came out of the Army.

Question. Do you recall what rank he had in the Army?

Mr. ROSSER. He was an officer in the Army.

Mr. JACKSON. These meetings you attended, however, were closed meetings? Mr. ROSSER. Oh, yes.

Mr. JACKSON. And only those who were members of the Young Communist League of the Communist Party were admitted to meetings?

Mr. ROSSER. Well, some of the meetings, like it was a faction [or fraction] discussing the organizing drive of the American Can Co.-only those that worked in the American Can or the staff of the Communist Party or the Young Communist League could get into the meetings-not anti-Communists.

Mr. JACKSON. These were meetings confined solely to members? There were no non-Communists in attendance at the meetings?

Mr. ROSSER. No.

Then, the questioning related to other individuals, and Mr. Rosser was then asked this question:

I would like to have you briefly review, to the best of your recollection, all the times that you met Amos Heacock as a member of the Communist Party or as a member of the YCL, and give approximate dates, if possible, and the location of the meetings as near as possible. I realize it is a long time ago.

Mr. ROSSER. Just a minute. When you start fooling with dates, you see, you get yourself all-I can't remember, but I will say from 1936 up to 1938 I met and worked with Amos Heacock; and I met with him many times in the downtown group of the Young Communist League and in the downtown youth branch of the Communist Party.

I also met with him in faction [or fraction] meetings, discussing the work of organizing American Can.

The job of organizing the union in the American Can was the concentration point of the Young Communist League. That was one of our concentrations. The American Can was over in the Negro community, and it was a concentration point of that group of Communists in the Young Communist League in that community.

I met with him on, I would say, 20 times. That is a small thing to say, but I would say 20 times in official capacity, as meetings in the Communist Party factions (or fractions) and the Young Communist League, although I met with him many times.

Question. Amos Heacock had some brothers. Can you recall them?

Mr. ROSSER. I can't recall them, but I knew them.

Question. You are not confusing Amos Heacock with any of the brothers? Mr. ROSSER. No.

Question. Do you recognize this picture of anybody that you met as a member of the Communist Party?

Mr. ROSSER. This is Amos on the right.

Question. I would like to introduce that in the record as Rosser Exhibit No. 1. Mr. JACKSON. It will be received.

(The document referred to was marked "Rosser Exhibit No. 1" and was received in evidence.)

Now, having refreshed your recollection, Mr. Heacock, by reading the testimony of Mr. Rosser, will you now tell the committee whether or not you were a member of the Young Communist LeagueMr. HEACOCK. I want to say

Mr. TAVENNER. During the period between 1936 and 1938?

Mr. HEACOCK. I was not a member of the Young Communist League. I am quite familiar with the fact, before I came up here, that Mr. Rosser has charged me with being a member of the Communist Party, and very detailed statements that you have there; but I would like to point out some inconsistencies in that story.

First

Mr. CLARDY. Well, may I interrupt for one question first, Mr. Chairman?

Mr. VELDE. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. CLARDY. Was your brother working at the American Can Co. along with you?

Mr. HEACOCK. No; he was not.

Mr. CLARDY. That is all I wanted to ask.

Mr. HEACOCK. I don't refer to this as a case of mistaken identity, because I knew Mr. Rosser. This is a different situation.

Mr. SCHERER. Well, before we get into this-I started to ask about the brother before, and I think it is important now. The witness indicated, on the basis of the testimony of the other witness before this committee, that it was his brother who was the member of the Young Communist League.

How old was your brother at that time?

Mr. HEACOCK. Around 19.

Mr. SCHERER. 1937?

(No response.)

Mr. SCHERER. In 1937

Mr. HEACOCK. I think it was

Mr. SCHERER. He was 19?

Mr. HEACOCK. I think it was 1937, or 1936; around there.
Mr. SCHERER. And he would have been 19 years of age?

Mr. HEACOCK. Yes.

Mr. SCHERER. What was he doing at that time?

Mr. HEACOCK. I believe he was working at Western Electric at the time.

Mr. SCHERER. And had he gone through high school?
Mr. HEACOCK. No, sir; he hadn't finished high school.

35203-53--4

Mr. SCHERER. He hadn't finished high school?

Mr. HEACOCK. No.

Mr. SCHERER. How long had he been out of high school?

Mr. HEACOCK. I don't recall exactly.

Mr. SCHERER. And you were how old at that time, Mr. Heacock?
Mr. HEACOCK. I was-

Mr. SCHERER. In 1937?

Mr. HEACOCK. In 1937 I was about 22.

Mr. SCHERER. No. How old were you in 1937?

Take time to figure it out.

Mr. HEACOCK. Well, I was born in 1914. I guess that would be about 22 or 23, wouldn't it?

Mr. SCHERER. And he was 4 years younger than you, then?

Mr. HEACOCK. Well, in 1938 he was about 20; in 1937, about 19, as I recall it. He was killed when he was 20.

Mr. SCHERER. He was killed just about that time, then?

Mr. HEACOCK. I believe about-it was in 1938 that he was killed.
Mr. SCHERER. 1938.

Mr. HEACOCK. He suddenly quit his job without any explanation at Western Electric and went to Texas, and-without saying what his purpose was in going there. He tried to catch a freight train in San Antonio, going about 30-35 miles an hour, was thrown under the wheels; died in the hospital.

Mr. VELDE. Did you attend any YCL meetings after your brother died?

Mr. HEACOCK. I believe so.

I'd like to point out

Mr. VELDE. Well, it seems to me, then, if we are to believe Mr. Rosser's testimony that there is no case of mistaken identity. He testified that the witness did attend Communist Party meetings after 1938 when he died.

Mr. HEACOCK. Mr. Chairman, I'd like

Mr. VELDE. I can see no case of mistaken identity, but what worries me, Mr. Heacock, is that you are substantially calling the witness, Lou Rosser, a perjurer when he says that you belonged to the YCL and the Communist Party and you deny it.

I trust you realize that, of course.

Mr. HEACOCK. Well, sir

Mr. SCHERER. Also the previous witness.

Mr. HEACOCK. Sir, I-I'd like to

Mr. SCHERER. Pardon me.

What was the name of that first witness you mentioned?

Mr. TAVENNER. His name was W. B. Holther-H-o-l-t-h-e-r.

Mr. CLARDY. May I ask him another question, Mr. Chairman?
Mr. VELDE. Mr. Clardy.

Mr. HEACOCK. Could I

Mr. CLARDY. Witness, the detailed testimony of Mr. Rosser makes it very apparent that the man he was talking about was employed at the American Can Co., was involved in union activity and that there are a great many other details that are going to be awfully troublesome to explain away if you are still insistent

Mr. HEACOCK. Mr. Clardy

Mr. CLARDY. Now, pardon me, if you are still insistent upon the mistaken identity theory.