Senator BUTLER. It will be so ordered. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Cvetic, during the course of your experience and activity in the Communist Party, at the behest of the Bureau of Investigation, did you have occasion to make the acquaintance of a man by the name of Thomas J. Quinn? Mr. CVETIC. Yes, sir. Mr. ARENS. Do you see that man in the courtroom today? Mr. ARENS. Would you kindly identify him, point him out? Mr. CVETIC. I first met Thomas Quinn in Hyman Schlesinger's office. Hyman Schlesinger is a member of the legal commission of the Communist Party in the United States. The meeting was called by Roy Hudson, the district organizer of the Communist Party. Mr. ARENS. By the way, do you see Mr. Schlesinger in the courtroom? Mr. CVETIC. I have to walk way back here. He is sitting back in the corner. This is Mr. Schlesinger here, this little guy [indicat ing]. Mr. ARENS. He is a man you identify as a member of the legal commission of the Communist Party? Mr. CVETIC. Yes, sir. Mr. ARENS. Would you kindly resume the witness chair? Mr. CVETIC. This man called me a rat right here. This one right here [indicating]. Senator BUTLER. Just resume your position. Mr. CVETIC. I wanted to point him out so you know who is who here. Mr. ARENS. Now will you proceed with the issue at hand, kindly. Mr. CVETIC. This meeting was called in Hyman Schlesinger's office for the purpose of setting up the Civil Rights Congress of Pittsburgh. I was told by Roy Hudson, the district organizer of the Communist Party, to attend this meeting. I went to the Park Building on Fifth Avenue in Pittsburgh and participated in this meeting, and present at the meeting were Pete Karpa, who was city secretary of the Communist Party; Tom Quinn, who was a Communist plant in the UE; Hyman Schlesinger, who was a member of the legal commission of the Communist Party; and I participated. Subsequent to that I met with Tom Quinn probably on a hundred or more occasions where we had discussed Communist strategy. For example, in 1948, I attended a meeting at which Tom Quinn was present. As a matter of fact, I attended several meetings where questions relating to party security were discussed, and where Roy Hudson, district organizer, and after Steve Nelson came here to replace Roy Hudson when matters of party security and especially the work of this committee and the House Committee on Un-American Activities were discussed, or the Federal Bureau of Investigation, we were directed. And at these meetings Tom Quinn was present, I was present, and many other members of the Communist Party, and we were instructed that if we were subpenaed by such a committee, to refuse to answer any questions of this committee on the grounds of the first and fifth amendments, that we are to stand up and condemn this committee. Mr. ARENS. That is the first amendment to the Constitution which the Communist Party is dedicated to destroy; is that correct? Mr. CVETIC. That is correct. The Constitution of the United States. We e were instructed to refuse to answer. We were instructed not to cooperate with this committee, that the only information we should give to these committees are our names, our addresses, and only the occupation information that the law makes us give. Outside of that we were to refer to such committees that are examining Communist infiltration into Government, labor, education, and so forth, as witchhunting committees, labor-baiting committees, and red-baiting committees, and later, after Senator McCarthy became active, we started calling them McCarthyites and McCarthy committees. Then later I still attended meetings with Tom Quinn, almost to the day I left the Communist Party to testify before the House committee. I have a 5-year knowledge of his Communist activities. Mr. ARENS. Do you here and now under oath, without equivocation, testify that Thomas J. Quinn, whom you have identified, is a person who to your certain knowledge was a member of the Communist Party while you were in the party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation? Mr. CVETIC. Yes. Thomas Quinn's official status in the Communist Party is he was a member of the electrical commission of the Communist Party in the United States, and this electrical commission, the sole activity is to infiltrate the electrical industry and the electrical trade unions for the purpose of carrying on sabotage, espionage, and propaganda against the established Government of the United States. Mr. ARENS. Thank you, sir. And now, Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that Mr. Mazzei be invited back to the witness chair. Senator BUTLER. Mr. Mazzei? Mr. ARENS. Mr. Mazzei, during the course of your service in the Communist Party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, did you have occasion to make the acquaintanceship of a gentleman or man by the name of Thomas J. Quinn? Mr. MAZZEI. Yes, sir. Mr. ARENS. Do you see him in the courtroom today? Mr. MAZZEI. Yes, sir. Mr. ARENS. Would you kindly identify him or point him out? Mr. MAZZEI. He is sitting right next to the attorney. Mr. SCRIBNER. May we ask, sir, that no pictures be taken while the testimony is going on? Senator BUTLER. There will be no pictures. Mr. ARENS. I will repeat the last question. Mr. MAZZEI. You asked me to identify him. He is sitting right next to his attorney right here [indicating]. Mr. ARENS. What was the nature of your acquaintanceship with Mr. Quinn while you were an undercover agent for the FBI in the Communist Party? Mr. MAZZEI. I first met Mr. Quinn in the Art Cinema lobby which I managed at that time. He was with Roy Hudson and I was introduced to him by Roy Hudson. I have attended closed meetings with him and open meetings. Mr. ARENS. Of the Communist Party? Mr. MAZZEI. Yes, sir. Mr. ARENS. And do you here and now testify under oath that to your certain knowledge Thomas J. Quinn whom you have identified is without equivocation a person who was a member of the Communist Party while you were in the party at the behest of the Federal Bureau of Investigation? Mr. MAZZEI. Yes, sir. Mr. ARENS. That will be all. Thank you. Mr. Quinn, you have heard the testimony of Mr. Cvetic and Mr. Mazzei. Mr. QUINN. I have heard it; yes. Mr. ARENS. Were they telling the truth or were they lying? Mr. QUINN. Again I must refer to my previous answer, I want to claim the privilege of the fifth amendment. Mr. ARENS. But you do not want to be placed in a position of testifying against yourself, is that correct? You do feel that a truthful answer to the question I have just given to you might furnish evidence upon which you could be possibly convicted of a criminal charge? Mr. QUINN. I have answered the question. I claim the privilege. That is my answer. Senator BUTLER. The committee will accept the plea under the fifth amendment. Mr. ARENS. I respectfully suggest to the Chairman Senator BUTLER. You are excused, Mr. Quinn. The committee will stand in recess until 1:30, and all witnesses who are continued under subpena will attend at that time. (Whereupon, at 12:25 p. m. the committee was recessed, to reconvene at 1:30 p. m. the same day.) AFTERNOON SESSION Senator BUTLER. The session will be in order. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Robert Kirkwood. Senator BUTLER. Mr. Kirkwood, will you raise your right hand? You do solemnly promise and declare that the evidence that you give this task force of the Internal Security Committee, of the Subcommittee on Internal Security, of the United States Senate, will be the truth and nothing but the truth? Mr. KIRKWOOD. I do. TESTIMONY OF ROBERT C. KIRKWOOD, GREENSBURG, PA., ACCOMPANIED BY DAVID SCRIBNER, ESQ., NEW YORK, N. Y. Mr. ARENS. Kindly identify yourself by name, residence, and occupation. Mr. KIRKWOOD. My name is Robert C. Kirkwood. I live at Rural Delivery 3, Greensburg, Pa. I am business agent of UE Local 610. Mr. ARENS. You are appearing here in response to a subpena which was served upon you? Mr. KIRKWOOD. Yes, sir. Mr. ARENS. And you are represented by counsel? Mr. KIRKWOOD. Yes, sir. Mr. ARENS. May I inquire whether or not the record is showing the appearance on each one of these witnesses? Mr. SCRIBNER. I don't think it did in the last one, but I think the record will be corrected when I say I did appear for the very last witness who was here and I appear for this witness. Senator BUTLER. That was Mr. Quinn. Mr. SCRIBNER. That is correct. Mr. ARENS. And the record shows your appearance on behalf of the representation of Mr. Kirkwood. So the record may be clear, what is your present position with the UE? Mr. KIRKWOOD. I am business agent of local 610, UE. Mr. ARENS. And how long have you been so engaged? Mr. KIRKWOOD. As business agent? Mr. ARENS. Yes, sir. Mr. KIRKWOOD. Since sometime in 1948; the early part of 1948. Mr. ARENS. And what was your connection prior to the time that you became business agent of local 610, UE? Mr. KIRKWOOD. Well, I have at various times been an organizer and international representative of the UE. Mr. ARENS. And would you be a little bit more specific, please, sir, giving us the particular posts which you held and the approximate time, the area in which you were engaged? Mr. KIRKWOOD. From about sometime in 1938, to sometime, I believe, in 1941 I was field organizer for the UE, and stationed in Dayton, Ohio, and Chicago, Ill. From 1941 until 1948 I was an international representative, stationed in Chicago, and Indianapolis, Ind. Mr. ARENS. Does that cover the entire period of your association with Mr. KIRKWOOD. Well, I joined the union in 1937. Mr. ARENS. Mr. Kirkwood, have you signed a Taft-Hartley nonCommunist affidavit? Mr. KIRKWOOD. I have, sir. Mr. ARENS. And how many of them have you signed, do you recall? Mr. KIRKWOOD. Four, I believe. Mr. ARENS. Was it true what you said in the affidavit? Mr. KIRKWOOD. The affidavit speaks for itself, sir. Mr. ARENS. Was it true what you said in the affidavit? Mr. KIRKWOOD. The affidavit speaks for itself. Mr. ARENS. Will you kindly answer the question? In the affidavit you said, or swore, to the statement that "I am not a member of the Communist Party or affiliated with such party." Did you sign that? Mr. KIRKWOOD. I believe the affidavit speaks for itself. Mr. ARENS. I say did you sign it? Mr. KIRKWOOD. Yes, I signed it, sir. Mr. ARENS. Now, when you signed it, was it a fact that you were not a member of the Communist Party or affiliated with the party at the instant that you signed these affidavits? Mr. KIRKWOOD. I believe the affidavits speak for themselves. Mr. ARENS. Would you kindly answer the question. Was it true or not? Mr. KIRKWOOD. Sir, I believe that I will have to respectfully decline to answer for two reasons: First, for the privilege that is provided me in the fifth amendment of the Constitution; and, secondly, because of the free-speech, free-assembly, and free-press clause of the first amend ment which doesn't require me to testify under compulsion on my political associations or beliefs. Senator BUTLER. We recognize the fifth amendment. Mr. ARENS. Now, while you were in the Chicago area, did you belong to any organization other than the UE? That is, during 1942 and 1943. (Witness conferred with his counsel.) Mr. KIRKWOOD. I have to give the same answer to that question, sir, as I gave to the previous one. Mr. ARENS. That the answer to that question, if given truthfully, might furnish a bit of evidence that could be used against you in a criminal proceeding; is that your contention? Mr. KIRKWOOD. I have given the answer that I believe is correct. Mr. ARENS. Would you kindly answer this question: Do you feel that the answer to the question I just posed to you, if given truthfully, might furnish information which could be used against you in a criminal proceeding? Mr. KIRKWOOD. I take the same position on this as I did previously, in which I said I will respectfully refuse to answer the question for two reasons: One, for the privileges provided me in the fifth amendment, and, secondly, because of the free press, free speech-the first amendment, which doesn't require me to testify on my political associations or political beliefs. Senator BUTLER. We recognize your right under the fifth amend ment. Mr. ARENS. Is the Communist Party just a political party? Mr. ARENS. Do you know whether or not it is a conspiracy controlled by a foreign power? Mr. KIRKWOOD. That I wouldn't know. Mr. ARENS. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny the fact, that during 1942 and 1943 you were chairman of the Illinois State Communist Party political campaign workers. Mr. KIRKWOOD. I would refuse to answer that on the grounds stated previously, sir. Mr. ARENS. I put it to you as a fact, and ask you to affirm or deny the fact, that during this period, 1942 and 1943, you were one of the leading Communist trade-union members in the Chicago area. Mr. KIRKWOOD. I would give you the same answer to that question, sir. Mr. ARENS. I put it to you as a fact and ask you to affirm or deny the fact that during 1945 your membership was transferred from the Communist Party in the Chicago area to the Indianapolis area. Mr. KIRKWOOD. The same answer as previously given, sir. Mr. ARENS. Tell us the names of all organizations of which you are a member at the present time. Mr. KIRKWOOD. I am only a member of one organization now, sir. That is the United Electrical, Radio, and Machine Workers of America. Mr. ARENS. Are you now a member of the Communist Party? Mr. KIRKWOOD. I would refuse to answer that question on the grounds Mr. ARENS. Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness be ordered and directed to answer the question because he has stated |