Mrs. MARSHALL. No; we have very few members in Southern States. We do have some in New Orleans, some in Virginia, some new ones in North Carolina. I ought to get in touch with the administration office if you want figures on that-a break-down of where our members are located.

Senator DONNELL. If you will do that, we will be obliged to you. Approximately how many members do you have in the United States? Mrs. MARSHALL. Four thousand. I want to say, also, that there are 4.000 members in the United States, and in Denmark there are 20,000 members.

Senator ELLENDER. Will you give the membership by States, of those who voted for the resolution?

Mrs. MARSHALL. I will try to do that.

Senator DONNELL. What is the latest expression on the matter of discrimination in employment? Do you recall that?

Mrs. MARSHALL. No; I do not.

Senator DONNELL. And was there any expression made in the United States section at any time on that?

Mr. MARSHALL. By the United States section?

Senator DONNELL. Yes; the United States section.

Mrs. MARSHALL. Yes; and I think by the international.

Senator DONNELL. We will be very glad to have both, and I think we would like to have you give us both. Now, will you proceed with your statement?

(Subsequently Mrs. Marshall submitted the following:)

II. THE UNITED STATES SECTION OF THE WOMEN'S INTERNATIONAL LEAGUE FOR PEACE AND FREEDOM

The 1945, 1946, and 1947 annual conventions of the United States section endorsed the creation of a permanent fair employment practices commission in the United States.

A. 1945 resolution to the President and the Members of Congress:

"The Women's International League for Peace and Freedom, assembled in annual convention at Haverford, Pa., May 3-6, 1945, asserting that the right to work is the right to live, urges the immediate enactment by the Senate and the House and the signature by the President of S. 101 (or H. R. 2232), creating a permanent Fair Employment Practice Commission with enforcement powers to insure every man and woman in this country, of whatever race, creed, or color skin, an equal opportunity to work for a living at the top level of their skills." B. 1946 statement in domestic program for the year:

"FEPC

"The League stands for a Permanent Fair Employment Practices Committee and supports legislation to this end. It urges this not only as a matter of policy but as a concrete measure to implement the principle enunciated in the United Nations Charter or the promotion of basic human rights without regard to race. religion, or sex."

C. 1947 quotation from heading No. 6, "Civil liberties," under section V, "Demoeracy and human rights," of the "Principles and policies" adopted for the current

year:

66200 * * The League urges the repeal of the poll tax, the establishment of the FEPC, and such other measures as would prevent the denial of human rights on grounds of race."

Mrs. MARSHALL. I speak in support of S. 984 for the United States section of the Women's International League for Peace and Freedom. I have heard the league described as both an international and an interracial organization. Actually, the word "interracial" is inadequate, for since its inception, in 1915, this organization, including the

United States section, has sought its members from all religious and national as well as racial groups. Today the paid and volunteer personnel of the United States section constitutes a similar cross section of human origin and background.

The basis for this policy of the league and for its support of this bill is the conviction that peace and freedom require that all citizens of all lands enjoy equal rights under the law and equal access to productive employment. Unless all nations learn to evaluate every person on his individual merits, unless religious and racial bigotry can everywhere be shown to be ultimately destructive of the rights of all, there is little chance for understanding within or among nations.

You are all aware of the avid attention focused from abroad upon each and every instance of racial and religious discrimination in American life which reaches the public eye. Members of the United States section of the league who attended its international congress in Luxemburg last summer can testify to this from direct experience. They reported that questions about treatment of minority groups in the United States were the first they were asked by delegates from virtually every other country represented. Make no mistake, it is not only those people who seek adherents to a philosophy quite different from ours who examine our profession of devotion to freedom both critically and skeptically. Many of this world's most passionate lovers of freedom, those whom we want most to remain our friends, are often hard pressed to defend us.

Senator ELLENDER. Mrs. Marshall, when you refer to "minority groups" in your statement, do you mean

Mrs. MARSHALL. Well, I use that perhaps too loosely. I mean nationality groups, racial groups, and any religious group.

Senator ELLENDER. What about the number? We had a witness here yesterday who testified that Catholics in this country were a minority group. Do you agree with that?

Mrs. MARSHALL. I don't know the number.

Senator ELLENDER. Twenty-two million. Would you call that a minority group?

Mrs. MARSHALL. No; I should think that would not be a minority group.

Senator ELLENDER. If that be true, you would have no majority group in this country. They would all be minority.

Mrs. MARSHALL. No; I think

Senator ELLENDER. I say, if you follow it to the logical conclusion, there would be no majority groups; they are all minorities.

Senator MURRAY. Of course, that is true. There is no majority group in the United States. It is constantly fluctuating, as in politics. The Republicans are in here now.

Senator DONNELL. That is the majority group now. We hope they will remain here permanently.

Senator MURRAY. Maybe they will, judging from what is going on in the Nation today.

Senator DONNELL. Proceed, Mrs. Marshall.

Mrs. MARSHALL. United States aid to Greece and Turkey is held up as practical application of a general policy of building democracy abroad to halt the expansion of totalitarianism and thus strengthen the United Nations. The league feels that passage of S. 984 itself would do much to implement both parts of that general policy.

It would demonstrate the sincerity of United States concern for individual freedom and the ability of our system to give increasing substance and breadth to that freedom. It is obvious that continuing patterns of racial, religious, or nationality discrimination in any area of the world today are more than ever an invitation to communism. It would, as its authors recognize, be a convincing demonstration that the United States intends to fulfill in its domestic affairs obligations assumed under the UN Charter. It would demonstrate the effectiveness of the United Nations as an operating force if its greatest, most powerful member were to make this carry-over from Charter to domestic legislation.

The league recognizes the necessity for approaching this problem which has clouded the American scene for generations with temperance and moderation. We believe that S. 984 embodies the moderate approach. The basis of real opportunity is equal access to whatever employment one is qualified for. We also believe that guaranteeing equal access to employment is essential and that S. 984 in its present form contains the minimum regulation and enforcement provisions possible if the guaranty is to be at all effective. That this measure attempts to guarantee only access to a job and not the job itself should not be forgotten. There is no right of the individual more basic than his right to help himself.

Senator DONNELL. Mrs. Marshall, you state that you believe S. 984 embodies the modern approach to the question. You are familiar with the section under "Judicial review" and the powers of the Commission stated therein?

Mrs. MARSHALL. Yes; I am familiar with them-I should not say too familiar.

Senator DONNELL. You have read the section?

Mrs. MARSHALL. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. And you are aware of the fact that if an order of the Commission be not complied with, and if recourse be had to the courts, the court is here authorized to issue orders requiring compliance with the orders made by the Commission. You realize that? Mrs. MARSHALL. Yes; I do.

Senator DONNELL. And I take it you are not a member of the bar now; but, at any rate, I assume that in your thoughts here, you recognize the fact that the court can enforce its orders by fine or imprisonment? You realize that?

Mrs. MARSHALL. Yes. I think I would like to say here something which I thought of while the witness who preceded me was talking, when you were talking to him about this question. I think this is moderate because of the inclusion of provisions for conciliation and for more or less informal settling of these problems by conciliation. I think the fact of the enforcement provisions provided if the order is not complied with, the matter must be taken to court, will merely help to cut down the number of court cases, because I think there will be more encouragement to settling beforehand.

Senator DONNELL. Mrs. Marshall, I don't think the bill says that if the order is not complied with, the matter must be taken to court. Mrs. MARSHALL. No, sir.

Senator DONNELL. The Commission has the power to proceed to court, and any person aggrieved at the final order of the Commission

may obtain a review. Somebody has to take initial action, either the Commission or the person aggrieved. The court does not assume jurisdiction without jurisdiction being sought by someone. But after the jurisdiction has been sought you appreciate the fact that the court has power to make a decree enforcing the order of the Commission, and that a decree of the court, if not complied with, can be the basis for contempt proceedings. You realize that?

Mrs. MARSHALL. Yes; I do.

Senator DONNELL. And you have that in mind when you say that S. 984 embodies the modern approach?

Mrs. MARSHALL. Yes. I say it is the minimum, however, which can be done if a law is to be at all effective.

Senator DONNELL. Mrs. Marshall, you said you had a membership of 4,000 in this country?

Mrs. MARSHALL. Yes.

Senator DONNELL. How is it maintained?

Mrs. MARSHALL. It's hit or miss, shall we say, by no specific group whatsoever..

Senator ELLENDER. What size staff do you have, Mrs. Marshall?
Mrs. MARSHALL. Two. Myself and a secretary.

Senator DONNELL. Thank you very much, Mrs. Marshall, for giving us your testimony. Our next witness is Julius A. Thomas, director, department of industrial relations, National Urban League, New York City. Will you please state your name and address, your occupation, and something of your background?

STATEMENT OF JULIUS A. THOMAS, DIRECTOR OF DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS, NATIONAL URBAN LEAGUE

Mr. THOMAS. My name is Julius A. Thomas. I am director of the department of industrial relations of the National Urban League, whose offices are at 113 Broadway, and I live in New York City.

I attended college here in Washington, Howard University, some 30 years ago. I attended Western Reserve and I have been at Columbia University.

I have been employed by the Urban League for 23 years-this is my twenty-fourth year-in my capacity as director of the department of industrial relations. For the past 412 years, my specific responsibility has been to stimulate the development of personnel practices and procedures that would facilitate the introduction of Negro workers in business and their entry into the professions. That is one of the phases of the program of the National Urban League, and is also incorporated in the program of the 56 urban leagues around the United States.

Senator DONNELL. Where was your birthplace?

Mr. THOMAS. My birthplace is Greensboro, N. C.

Senator DONNELL. How long did you live in North Carolina?

Mr. THOMAS. Until I was 10 years old.

Senator DONNELL. From North Carolina, where did you go?
Mr. THOMAS. To Charleston, W. Va.

Senator DONNELL. How long did you stay there?

Mr. THOMAS. Until I was 17, when I entered college.
Senator DONNELL. Which college, Howard University?

Mr. THOMAS. Howard University, here in Washington.

Senator DONNELL. What did you specialize in, in Howard University?

Mr. THOMAS. Economics and sociology.

Senator DONNELL. I understood you to say also you attended Western Reserve and Columbia University?

Mr. THOMAS. That is right.

Senator DONNELL. What did you specialize in there?

Mr. THOMAS. Social worker administration and economics.

Senator DONNELL. Did you take degrees from the three institutions you mentioned?

Mr. THOMAS. Only from two.

Senator DONNELL. What were the institutions from which you received degrees?

Mr. THOMAS. Columbia and Howard, A. B. and masters.

Senator DONNELL. Now, would you tell us something of the National Urban League? What is that organization?

Mr. THOMAS. The National Urban League is an interracial socialwork agency founded in 1910 for the purpose of developing social services to meet the needs of the migratory Negro population, which at that time was just beginning to move to urban sections. That is where the name "Urban" comes in. We are concerned primarily with the problems of urban dwellers.

Senator DONNELL. Since you were 17, you have not lived in South Carolina? Is that right?

Mr. THOMAS. I worked in Atlanta, Ga.-that was my first Urban League assignment-in 1924, and I worked in Jacksonville, Fla., as executive of the Urban League for 5 years. I worked in Louisville, Ky., as executive of the Urban League for nearly 14 years.

Senator DONNELL. How large a membership has the National Urban League?

Mr. THOMAS. The Urban League is not primarily a membership organization. In our local communities, the Urban League is a part of the social-work machinery of the community. It is identified with the Council of Social Agencies and the Community Chest. Our national organization has a relatively small membership which we call our "contributing members," possibly 3,000. We are financed by voluntary contributions.

Senator ELLENDER. What connection, if any, do you have with the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People?

Mr. THOMAS. Only in that we cooperate on problems of mutual interest and mutual concern. They are an entirely different organization, and they operate more in the areas of civil rights and civil liberties. We operate in the social-work field.

Senator ELLENDER. How much time have you actually spent in the South since you engaged in this social work?

Mr. THOMAS. Well, I would say 6 years in the deep South and 14 years in what is referred to as the "border South"-we will call that Kentucky. In the past 4 years I have made three trips through the South, looking into the problems we are considering now.

Senator ELLENDER. From the time that you first entered the South and appreciated the conditions that you are now trying to alleviate, have you found any progress and, if so, to what extent? If not, I would like to know that.