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Mayor HUMPHREY. Yes, sir; very fine, upstanding Congregationalists.

Senator IVES. We are Presbyterians, we two.

Senator ELLENDER. I have asked you about the Jews out there and the fact that a lot of people are against them; do you know if discrimination of any kind or character is practiced?

Mayor HUMPHREY. Jewish people?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes.

Mayor HUMPHREY. Senator, we are going to be tactful. There is discrimination between the Jewish people and the colored people and the colored people against the Jewish people and the colored against the white and the white against the colored. This is not a one-way street. Therefore, I say equal application of the law; equal protection of the law; whoever is guilty, regardless of race, color, creed, should have the full effect of the law against him, and whoever is not guilty and is being discriminated against should be given the protection of the law.

Senator ELLENDER. According to your observation, there is as much or some discrimination being practiced among those who state there is or should be no discrimination.

Mayor HUMPHREY. You are asking me whether minorities are practicing discrimination. There is no doubt they are responsible for a due proportion of it, but there is much less, because of the size of the numbers, than in the majority group, and I think that while that consideration is germane to the topic and to the bill, again I should make my position clear.

I am not "carrying water" for the minority. I do not like the term. I like the term-to think of them in terms of being "human beings"; and whatever their race, whatever their background may be, or their ancestry, they are people; they are American citizens; and the sooner we quit talking about minorities in America and the sooner we talk about the American citizen-the American people-the better off we are going to be in handling this problem-take out some of the hyphens in the American name, with full appreciation of the laws of America. That is what we say in the Constitution-in the fourteenth amendment. This sort of thing should implement, and does implement, in a positive way the particular segment of our economy-the fourteenth amendment and I think it is just putting meaning to our word "democracy."

I have many fine phrases in this prepared testimony. I almost wish that I could read them, but I do not think I will take the time. Senator IVES. We have entered this already in the record, have we not?

Mayor HUMPHREY. Yes.

I have reviewed here the operation of several State laws that we have which you are very familiar with, such as the programs in Chicago and Milwaukee and New York City as compared to our program in the city of Minneapolis, and I want to say that all laws are only as good, let me say, practically, as their administrators.

We are very careful in the personnel that we placed on that commission, and I am going to read this portion of it. [Reading:]

The selection of properly qualified personnel for the commission and staff holds the key to fair and effective administration of the law. In Minneapolis we have been extremely fortunate in securing five outstanding leaders in different phases of community life to serve as members of the commission. The chairman, Mr. George M. Jensen, is regional manager of the Nash-Kelvinator Corp., Protestant cochairman of the National Conference of Christians and Jews, recently headed the civic fund campaign which provides the budget for the chamber of commerce and related agencies, and is a valuable member of the Mayor's Council on Human Relations.

Another member is Mr. Raymond Cannon, prominent Negro attorney and one of the founders of the Minneapolis Urban League.

A third member is Mr. Jack Jorgenson, president of the Teamsters' Joint Council and vice president of the Minneapolis Central Labor Union.

A fourth member is Mr. Amos Deinard, another distinguished attorney and the Jewish cochairman of the National Conference of Christians and Jews.

The fifth and final member of the commission is Mr. Lawrence E. Kelley, who is circulation manager of the Minneapolis Daily Times and retiring president of the Minneapolis Junior Chamber of Commerce.

We say that it represents a cross section of our community, and each one of these people is of the opinion that his job is one of information, one of promoting understanding, one of securing observance, one of conciliation, one of mediation and calling people in, and you would be surprised to see the large number of our factories and shops and retail establishments that have already revised their employment practices; that have already revised their entire procedure of oral examination or investigation of their applicant for a job and have already opened up their gates to new opportunities for people, and may I say that is going to show its effect in positive terms in our budget-our city budget. People who were relegated to $15- and $18-a-week jobs-people that had college educations, who are capable and still being forced to work as redcaps because they were coloredwe have far too many of them in America, and I think it is traditional to spend the millions of dollars we do to educate people to become intelligent citizens, to become capable, skilled people, and then to say to them-some of whom have masters' degrees or B. A.: "Go out to the depot and carry somebody's luggage and see if you can get a dine from them or half a dollar"; making bellhops out of them. That is not good for people.

We have to have people who carry luggage, but let people carry luggage who have the capacity and ability to carry luggage; they will be happy on that basis; but to take a college-trained man and because he is colored put him on such a job, or to tell him he is going to dig ditches as common labor, or to work on the railroad in the lowest work classification you have got, that is not only discrimination, not only does something to his whole outlook, but makes him easy prey to every cockeyed philosophy that comes along, and it also destroys something for the community.

That would be just exactly like taking the finest general that we have in the United States, or one of the top generals, and say to him: "What we are going to do is this: have you work on K. P. all day." Boy, what kind of criticism the Congress of the United States would give if they should see that type of inefficiency taking place.

Or take a top administrator from one of the departments and put him down as shipping clerk; on that basis the people of America

would have a real right to say that there is being gross inefficiency exemplified in Washington.

I say that this bill says to the American people there is gross misapplication of effort and energy in America; and if this bill is passed, it gives opportunity for normal adjustment of the people in the line of work that they are most capable of doing.

In other words, if a man has it "on the ball," as we say-if he has the training, the ability-he is going to have a job, if he can find that job; and he is going to be given that job not because he is good looking or homely, not because he is white or black, not because of what religious faith he has, but what he can do and produce. That is the finest example, and I am all for them. That is the best answer to foreign ideologies, to fascism and communism-making democracy work, plus a firm policy. But we cannot have a firm policy by putting the hands out and saying to the seas of totalitarianism, "Stop here," on the one hand, when the totalitarianists say, "What are you talking about?" They point out our evils. And we, as democratic people— we, as folks who have morality-have a greater obligation to people in terms of those ideas and ideals because we go around talking virtuous; we have got to live that way of life once in awhile and live that way to the best of our ability every facet of our lives, and particularly ought we do it in business, because if there is anything in this country we scream about it is free enterprise. Anything we talk about, whether it is our productive ability, technological achievement-and it seems to me this bill is just another factor to fortify the continued economic well-being and economic strength of America and say to every American, just as we said in the war: "You are good enough for the good old U. S. A.; now let's go fight." We needed a lot of people to die for the Nation; today we need a lot of people to work for the Nation.

Senator IVES. Senator Smith, have you any questions?
Senator SMITH. I have just one question.

I appreciate what you have said, Mr. Mayor, and as one of the coauthors of this bill I am delighted to find support for it and to think that it expresses the policy to be adopted in American policy.

Just one question troubled me in the whole matter; I just wanted you briefly to state your conviction on it. There are a number of areas in this country that resent the legal sanctions in various measures passed, not necessarily this bill but legal sanctions being imposed by the Federal Government on the action in local areas.

We have set up in this bill a very carefully worked out plan or machinery for adjustment of the discrimination cases where the commission function is used-in the New York experience, in my State, New Jersey, and Massachusetts; we have had that over a period of time, and we have a very effective machinery. I take it you have in Minneapolis.

Now, neither in Minneapolis nor, as far as our testimony shows, here in New York or New Jersey have they ever had to apply the legal sanctions. I want to ask you this question: Whether you think it would be possible to work out some plan whereby in a jurisdiction that did not wish to apply the legal sactions, that option could be given-just the legal sanction, everything else being in effect-and do you think it could be effective, or do you think the legal sanctions are a sine qua non of such a law working?

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Senator IVES. I think that is the very question I raised with Mrs. Mahoney.

Mayor HUMPHREY. I think that is a very fundamental question, and I have a conviction on it, Senator, and my feeling is that if we are going to have this kind of a law, let us have this kind of a law. Let it apply to all people alike, the majority and minorities and the South and the East and the West, everywhere, with legal sanctions. Now, in those areas where we have had no need for application of the legal sanction, you do not need to worry about it. I do not mean that they have a national law or law, for example, about forgery or a law about bankruptcy. I am not going to rob a bank.

Senator SMITH. That has raised the question to me of inconsistency in that situation. I do not quite agree with that. I think you have a situation here which deals with very delicate human relations. 1 am convinced that we cannot legislate happiness and human relations. I am convinced you must like the fellow. I am convinced you could educate that man to have a larger understanding of human relationships. You could educate people to realize the wrong that, in my judgment, has been done to Negroes and other in this country and get them to see along the line of our own suggestion. Going forward, we have to eliminate those discriminations. Can we do it by the word "must," or by conciliation and persuasion processes?

Mayor HUMPHREY., I would say that if you did not have this mandatory conciliation service that you——

Senator SMITH. That part still remains mandatory.

Mayor HUMPHREY. If you did not have regionalization in the circuit courts, district courts, and for your examiners, then I would sayif it is just punitive-then you would have good grounds for your feeling or your statement on it; but it is my opinion that you do have, first of all, these mandatory concilation and persuasion provisions before any legal action-before action taken for punitive effect-and this working and educating in there-and I heard Senator Ives say, time is on our side-so on this thing, the explanation I have, the flexibility of it permits you to have what you want to have happen. But as the statement of one who has spent a good deal of his life in education, education is not enough. It is just like in the home; the good parent is not the one that uses the rod or strap right off the bat; he is one who talks and tries to understand the child; but, at the same time, I am not one of the modernists to a point where I do not believe in old-fashioned remedies when it gets right down to brass tacks. And if we did not have such a set-up, I do not know what kind of America we would have. In this situation I believe we have got to maintain those enforcement features. I say that it permits a great discretion on the part of the Commission.

Senator SMITH. Bear in mind we are dealing in areas where we are trying to develop an atmosphere which is just as important as the word "must."

Mayor HUMPHREY. With the "must" it is like this thing you carry in your right-hand pocket. If need be, you have force. Right over here in the final part you have some means of compelling action.

Senator SMITH. I do not want to prolong this. You apparently share the views of the other witnesses; I am just trying to see the general feeling on the explosiveness of this particular point. I think

that is the very heart of the whole business. If we start wrong the thing will be repealed as prohibition was repealed, if we do not have public opinion.

If public opinion says these people are autocratic, unreasonable, you are going to break this whole movement up. I want to see the movement succeed, and I am wondering whether the process should not take place step by step through education, conciliation, and discussions, by the Commission-yes; but not the arm of the law; not let people feel we are putting a law in here that is compelling people to be nice and be agreeable and to work with each other.

Mayor HUMPHREY. I would say, Senator, too, that if we do not have this with uniform enforcement in it, we would have a crazyquilt type of policy of the country.

Senator SMITH. I agree with that, but that is questionable in my mind.

Senator ELLENDER. Senator, I was just going to remark that I noticed in the paper of yesterday, or the day before, where California voted by a million votes against; that is, the majority voted against FEPC for the State of California.

Senator SMITH. I am not saying this is no problem. Out there are areas where you have an extensive Japanese problem; and there are other areas in the Middle West where farmers, some of the farmers, are very greatly in doubt about trying to accomplish this. So I am just trying to think in terms of making it succeed and not having a law that will be a dead letter because public opinion is against it. Success will depend upon the people who run it, and the people who run it who have that diplomacy, and persuasiveness to bring about this desired result without having a big stick behind the scenes.

Mayor HUMPHREY. May I say, Senator, that I know of no type of legislation that will have more intelligent, more understanding personnel available for the Commission.

Senator SMITH. I agree we have done spendid work in the commissions in Massachusetts, New York, and New Jersey. I have commended them all. I think they have done a wonderful job; and I never knew of yours, but I think you have done a wonderful job, too.

You are at least going along with me this far-that emphasis must be on education, conciliation, and persuasion rather than emphasis on the big stick.

Mayor HUMPHREY. It is like it is in traffic control, sir; you do not keep people driving safely and sanely by putting a traffic officer on every block.

Senator SMITH. I do not agree with the implication there that the situation is the same between automobiles and human beings. There is a different personal approach in the thing and that is all I am discussing with you-a different personal approach.

Can we deal with people better by the iron hand, by saying you must do this thing, or by reason and conciliation and understanding of what the basic issues are that you have so well expressed?

Mayor HUMPHREY. All I can say is that if this bill were passed as it is, you would have an expression from the Congress of the United States formulated into the law. The American people, under the program that we have outlined, that you gentlemen have outlined in the bill, and with your own understanding of it, with the education and with the conciliation and all, will have respect for that law.

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