(Mr. Spence submitted the following brief:)

A STATEMENT BEFORE THE SENATE LABOR AND PUBLIC WELFARE COMMITTEE BY PAULSEN SPENCE, JULY 16, 1947

I am glad to have this opportunity of appearing before this honorable committee as I believe I can throw some light on this question that might be helpful in the consideration of the proposed legislation. I would like to recite my background because I believe it would show that I am in a better position to speak on this matter than most people.

I was born in Baton Rouge, La. Both of my grandfathers were captains in the Union Army. I was reared by my maternal grandfather, a minister of the gospel who was captain of Company I of the Sixty-eighth Indiana Infantry, and an uncle who emigrated from Denmark in 1869.

The grandfather of whom I speak moved to Louisiana in 1873 and operated a large plantation southeast of Baton Rouge in addition to his duties as a minister.

I am frank to admit that I am prejudiced on this subject, because practically all white people who reside in the South for any length of time, regardless of their previous predilections, become prejudiced on this subject. On the other hand, my family and my wife's family have always tried to help the colored people in every way they could. In fact, my wife's family for five generations have been law-enforcement officers and judges in the Felicianas, and as recently as last week my honorable father-in-law, Judge H. H. Kilbourne, said to me, "As long as I am a judge, I am going to see to it that the colored people get a square deal."

I do not know the constitutional basis for this law. If it is based on the com-. merce clause, it is absurd because the commerce clause does not empower Congress to regulate the business affairs of individuals.

In my part of Louisiana up to the time that Mrs. Roosevelt and other pseudouplifters took a hand in the matter, the relationship between the white people and the colored people was very cordial, and the colored man was constantly improving his situation.

I am sorry to say that since the advent of the New Deal, relations between the colored people and the white people have deteriorated, and I believe that it can be safely said that no single person was ever more disliked by the white people of the South than the former President's wife.

I do not believe that the colored people have a whole lot of respect for her and her associates, because a colored person considers a white person who would come down to his level as being dirt under his feet. This is best illustrated by a little story of the colored woman who went North to work and, while serving as a washwoman for a certain white family, was invited to eat dinner with the family. The head of the house said to her: "I bet your white people down South never asked you to eat dinner with them." She replied: "No, suh; my white folks was gentlemens."

Senator Ives is not fooling me in his great desire to help the colored people. In fact, I do not believe he is fooling very many of the colored people. If Senator Ives did not know that the southern Senators would filibuster this bill to death, I seriously doubt if he would even consider offering it. It is a pity to clutter up the legislative mill and waste the time of the Senators and the money of the taxpayers considering such tripe.

I think Senator Ives' motives were best explained by an actual experience of mine. A few years ago I was acting as chauffeur for Hon. Albert L. Vreeland when he first ran for the Congress, and it was his painful duty to address a Negro meeting. Knowing that I felt that the Negro had not advanced in the evolutionary process to the point where he was fitted to exercise the right of suffrage, I was not asked to attend the meeting but I was allowed to sleep in the car. I was awakened by a loud-mouthed Negro saying:

"Dat man"-referring to Mayor Martens, the perennial mayor of East Orange, N. J.-"ain't coming around here tonight. Dat mayor is too biggety. I know dat man. I marched in the 'peerade' when they incorporated this town. I know all about that man. 'Dese' Republicans say they for the colored man, and 'dese' Democrats they say they for the colored man. When you get a Repub lican together with a Democrat where you can't hear what they say, what do they say? They say, 'To hell with the niggers.'"

Now, going to the serious side of this matter, I think that most of those persons in the North who are sincere in their desire to help the colored man are putting the cart before the horse. They blame the southern white man for the restrictions that have been placed on the Negro, but they seem to overlook the fact that it is the Negro who causes these restrictions and not the white man. Should there be any prejudice against a person simply because his skin is black? These prejudices are not generated because of the color of the Negro's skin. They are generated because of his actions.

When I first came North in 1916, after having been graduated by the LSU, I found practically no prejudice whatsoever against the Negroes. Today the situation in the North is entirely different. There are a few people who are unprejudiced against the Negro, and these are either people who have had no contact with them, or people who place themselves on the same level as the Negro, or politicians like Senator Ives who want the Negro's vote.

A policeman in New York told me a year or so ago that "if the Little Flower would turn us loose, we would clean up Harlem in a couple of hours."

The Good Book says, "Thou hypocrite, first remove the beam out of thine own eye, then thou shalt see clearly to cast the mote out of thy brother's eye." It seems to me that a Senator from New York has a lot of gall offering a bill of this kind when Harlem is notoriously the most unlawful spot in the Nation. I would think that if Governor Dewey wants to be President and is going to clean up the South, he should get some practice cleaning up Harlem.

I am bringing this all out to show that wherever the Negro congregates in large numbers, prejudices against him grow up automatically where no prejudices existed before; and that, almost without exception, any person coming to the South, whether they come from the north of the United States or from the north of Europe, soon acquire the same prejudices as those held by the native southerner. These prejudices are the result of practical experience and no law or law enforcement under heaven can change them. Anyone who sponsors such a bill as the FEPC is either purposely or unwittingly playing the game of Joe Stalin, because the one thing Stalin wants to do in this country is to stir up trouble; and those who sponsor this bill are accomplishing nothing except to stir up trouble.

I said a while ago that those of the North who are sincere in their desires to help the Negro were putting the cart before the horse. What I mean by this is that they should not attack the white man. They should concentrate on trying to help the Negro. This brings us to what is wrong with the Negro.

In the first place, the white man, especially those of Teutonic origin, on which the laws and customs of this Nation are based, have had at least 10,000 years' experience in civilization, and the Anglo-Saxons have had hundreds of years' experience of self-government. On the other hand, the Negro has had less than 300 years' contact with civilization, and some people want to place them on an equality with white people. It seems to me that instead of feeling so sorry for the colored man, he should be urged to get down on his knees and thank God that his forebears were not fleet enough of foot to evade the slave trader because the worst-off Negro in America is far better off than his African cousins.

A Negro soldier living on my wife's uncle's plantation who was stationed in Africa wrote back to his wife and said: "Honey, don't you let anybody make you believe you came from these people."

In spite of everything that is said to the contrary, the Negro enjoys a large portion of American freedoms. This talk of a Negro being held down economically in the South is just so much bushwah. In East Baton Rouge Parish we have many prosperous Negroes. In that parish about 8,000 white families own their own homes and about 3,000 colored families own their own homes. This is almost exactly in proportion to the population of each race. Many of these homes owned by colored people, while not being pretentious, are roomy, comfortable, and well kept. Many Negroes in our community have earned the respect of everybody. In fact, all that a Negro needs to do is to be law abiding, respectable, honest, and attend to his own business and white people will do everything they can to help him.

I wish to make it clear that there are many exceptions to what I am about to mention. In fact, out of the thirteen-million-odd Negroes in the United States, I would say that there are possibly 500,000 about whom my remarks do not refer. One would feel sorry for these exceptions were it not for the fact that, on the whole, they make no effort whatsoever to really help the fellow members of their race. In fact, the average colored person has plenty to say about the "highfalutin' nigger."

I would say, offhanded, that the average white person up North knows nothing about Negroes, and there are few white people in the South who know very much more, because a Negro is a complete enigma.

The average Negro is dirty. He does not keep his person clean and his habits are not clean. For example, few Negroes are allowed to milk cows for the simple reason that whenever a Negro milks a cow, he spits on his hands.

A substantial portion of the Negroes are affected with venereal diseases. Syphilis is rampant among them. In fact, they consider it a great joke when one is "bit by Fido." If Senator Ives were successful in putting his bill through and could find enough Federal troops to enforce it, he would succeed in barring white people from using public conveniences because no self-respecting white woman would use a toilet that had been used by a Negro and no person familiar with these conditions would blame her.

Now the next thing wrong with the Negro is that he is a congenital liar. The truth is just not in him. It would be rather amusing to a southerner to watch Senator Ives run a plantation in the South if he depended upon a Negro as a manager. If a Negro can lie so good that a southerner will believe him, what would happen to the uninitiated?

The Negro is completely unreliable. One can never depend upon a Negro to show up when he is supposed to and he can invent the most plausible excuses for his lack of appearance.

Whereas there are a few Negroes who love animals and can be depended upon to take care of them, the great majority are, by nature, sadists who think nothing of torturing animals or allowing them to suffer, for example, from lack of water. Now the next thing is that there are relatively few Negroes who do not have sticky fingers. In fact, if, under Senator Ives' bill, a bank were forced to hire a Negro teller, they would have to nail down everything in the bank because, no matter how hard they try, there are few Negroes who can resist the temptation to steal.

The Negro is further handicapped by the fact that he will not work for another Negro. This was true in the last war where the Negro officers were a complete failure. The average Negro wants to work for a white man. He wants to work for a white man he respects and when someone puts a Negro over him, he will say, "I am not going to pay any attention to him because he is a nigger just like I am."

Likewise, I doubt if there is a white man in the whole South who would work under a Negro. Under Senator Ives' bill a Negro could be advanced to the right side of a locomotive cab. I would like him to find a white fireman who would fire for a Negro engineer.

The Negro is further handicapped by the fact that he has practically no mechanical aptitude, and figures such as are used by a bookkeeper are a complete mystery to him.

I do not think it is necessary to put much emphasis on the fact that the Negro is not an immoral person, but rather an unmoral person. I doubt if the average Negro of either sex has morals much different from Falla. On my wife's uncle's plantation there is a Negro woman with 12 children, no 2 having the same papa. When one refers to a Negro as being a "" the chances are 25 out of 26 that he is stating a fact; and yet the honorable Senator from New York wants to make these half-civilized people our equals. They may be his equal, but they are not mine.

It is apparent that Senator Ives and these other pseudo-uplifters are not familiar with history, especially the history of the South following the dark days of the Civil War. I would suggest that he read the history of those times before he tries to get this bill passed. He apparently is unaware of the fact that, for a good many years after the Civil War, Yankee soldiers were stationed all through the South with the express purpose of keeping the bottom rail on top. The ridiculous part of it is that most of these Yankee soldiers, after they had been in the South any length of time, instead of regulating the white man, helped the white man regulate the Negro. The very fact that the one-armed Confederate soldier returned from the Civil War, went to work and built the South back again, is eloquent proof of the superiority of the white man. If Senator Ives thinks he could enforce the FEPC in the South, he just doesn't know anything about the South. What he is actually doing is fomenting another Civil War. All students of military history agree that had Stonewall Jackson not been accidentally killed, he would have won the battle of Gettysburg and captured Washington and ended the Civil War. This time we are going to be a little more careful to be sure that our Stonewall Jackson is not accidentally killed.

Unless Senator Ives knows the temper of the average northern white man better than I do, I think that he is going to have an awfully hard time recruiting an army to force the Negro down the southern white man's throat.

So far as I know, the southern Negro has no spokesman because most people speaking for him are either trying to exploit their race for pecuniary gain or for political purposes. I believe that I can safely say to you that there are few Negroes in the South who would want to see the FEPC become a law because they know it would mean that, if any real attempt was made to enforce this law, thousands of them would be assassinated.

After I dictated a telegram to Senator Ellender recently, I asked the young lady who took my telegram how she would like to have a nice little colored girl working alongside of her. Her answer was: "I'd break her neck." And that is exactly what would happen if any real attempt was made to enforce this law.

Anyone familiar with railroading, as I am, knows that there are many engineers who would think no more of knocking a smart-alecky Negro fireman off a locomotive than I would shooting a rattlesnake.

As I have already stated, any Negro who lives in the South, tends to his own business, stays in his place, observes some of the elementary rules of ethics, has no trouble getting along whatsoever. This committee should know that no other kind of Negro can live in the South, and a law requiring the Mississippi River to run upstream would be easier to enforce than the FEPC.

This bill would only add to another problem which has developed in the South since 1933. Up to that time young Negroes, knowing that they had to earn their own living, learned a useful trade. Since all this pampering of the Negroes came into being, the young ones have taken full advantage of it and the South is faced with a large group of these people who are unable to earn their own living. One of the main reasons for this is that the young Negroes are so busy seeking equality that they do not have time to learn a trade, and this bill would tend to aggravate this situation.

A great statesman told us "that government governs best that governs least." The record of the Federal Convention of 1787 clearly indicates that the primary function of the Federal Government is to present a common front to the outside world and to prevent the States from squabbling among themselves over commerce. The founders never intended the Federal Government to stick its nose into the affairs of citizens, especially whom they should and should not employ. It seems to me that, at the present time, the Federal Government has its hands full dealing with Uncle Joe. I submit that it would be more profitable to all, including the Negroes, if it concentrated on this immediate problem instead of wasting its time and energy trying to do something that States can do better.

The Republican Party has pledged itself to reduce the expenses of government; yet a Republican offers this bill that would send swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.

Senator Ives and those who wish to elevate the Negro to a place alongside the white man apparently do not believe in the Bible because, according to Genesis IX, 25, "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren."

There are some who are so ignorant as to believe that the wording of the Declaration of Independence, "All men are created equal," refers to Negroes. We all know that men are not created equal and that the expression merely means equal before the law, which is exactly the attitude of most southern judges, as illustrated by Judge Kilbourne. That the expression meant Negroes were equal to white men is absurd for the simple reason that the author and many of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were slaveholders. Furthermore, the Constitution itself takes this into consideration when, in section 3 of article I, it specifically states:

"Representatives and direct taxes shall be apportioned among the several states, which may be included within this Union according to their respective numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole number of free persons, including those bound to service for a term of years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three-fifths of all other persons."

The Negro has not advanced to a point where he can take his place alongside the white man. He has many hard lessons to learn and it will take thousands of years to learn them. Ordinary education, as given to white children, is entirely inadequate for the Negro's needs as he needs training more along the

lines of Christian ethics than he needs reading and writing. I have already stated that arithmetic is Greek to him. I do not wish to infer that I am against the Negro's receiving elementary education but, in the case of most Negroes, "A little learning is a dangerous thing."

I do not know how he is going to get this training in Christian ethics unless he gets it through his church because I believe those few Negro preachers who are humble and sincere can do their race more good than anyone else. really wishing to help the Negro should encourage these men, including helping to educate them.

People

The best way to handle the Negro situation in this country is for the Federal Government to stay out of it entirely. If left to themselves, the States and the citizens thereof will assist the Negro to continue his march of progress which was interrupted in 1933.

Gentlemen, we have a very serious problem in the South. If left alone, we can solve it. If you insist on meddling, I warn you that thousands of Negroes and hundreds of white people are going to lose their lives.

The Negro has a definite place in our society and, when not confused by uplifters, is probably the happiest member of it. It can be reiterated that this proposed bill would merely stir up trouble, cause the Negro great unhappiness and discomfort, and fit in exactly with the plans of those who wish to destroy our Nation.

STATEMENT OF T. BRADY SAUNDERS, PRESIDENT, MILLER

MANUFACTURING CO., RICHMOND, VA.

Senator DONNELL. Will you please state your name.
Mr. SAUNDERS. T. Brady Saunders.

Senator DONNELL. What is your business?

Mr. SAUNDERS. President of the Miller Manufacturing Co., Richmond, Va., who are manufacturers of millwork, trim for houses, wooden boxes, and building materials.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Saunders, what is your educational background?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Common-school education and preparatory school. Senator DONNELL. Where were you born?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Franklin County, Va.

Senator DONNELL. Franklin County. Va.; and you have lived in Virginia, some place in Virginia, all your life.

Mr. SAUNDERS. All my life, yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Do you mind stating your age?

Mr. SAUNDERS. I am 65.

Senator DONNELL. What is the nature of your company, the Miller Manufacturing Co.?

Mr. SAUNDERS. It manufactures millwork out of lumber. We buy lumber from all over the country, I believe, with the exception possibly of Missouri and one or two of the Midwestern States. We get it from Louisiana and all over the country. We fabricate that, mill it, make it into doors, windows, sash, trim, and cornices.

Senator DONNELL. Do you employ any colored labor in your work? Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Do you employ white labor also?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. How many people do you employ?
Mr. SAUNDERS. We employ approximately 500.

Senator DONNELL. How long have you been in this particular line of business?

Mr. SAUNDERS. Well, I have been in this particular business since 1904; all my active, adult life.