bill that I know he is sincere about, absolutely sincere, and I have not doubted that for a minute.

Senator Ives. Further than that, I do not want more damage than good to come out of the bill.

Mr. SAUNDERS. I know that you are perfectly sincere, but you are trying to elevate or lift up or make more happy a people who are much more happy now than you, Senator Ives, and they get more out of life than either you or me. The southern Negro who stays in the South is the happiest person in the United States. He has a philosophy all of his own.

Senator IVES. That all depends upon the definition of "happiness." Mr. SAUNDERS. He is one of the greatest diplomats in the world. He knows just how far to go with his employer, or even with the judge. He is a great diversion for the southern businessman who knows him. The businessman would be tremendously downtrodden but he has only to have a Negro come in with his Negro problems, and the southern man who is raised in the South likes to work with the Negro, because it affords him a diversion. He has a certain thing that I do not know how to describe exactly, that more or less appeals to the southern businessman.

Senator IVES. Let us get ourselves oriented on that point. I take it that you feel that the Negro is happy because of the status which has been assigned to him in society. That is about it, is it not?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No.

Senator IVES. If you take him out of that status and try to advance him, then he ceases to be happy because he gets confounded by the other problems that face him, and other questions with which he may be confronted?

Mr. SAUNDERS. No, sir. The Negro status has not been assigned to him. He has developed that status. It is a status that you and I know is greatly improved from 40 years ago. It is not one that has been "assigned" to him, but one that has been developed.

Senator IVES. At the same time, I think your theory is that as long as he is a sort of ward of society, that he is happier than as though he were independent and on his own?

Mr. SAUNDERS. He is not a "ward" at all, in any sense of the word. We do not look on the Negro as a ward, but we do listen to the Negro, and we are more sympathetic with the Negro than you people are in the North. We are more sympathetic with them than we are with the white people. We are more sympathetic with them than we are with the white folks.

Senator ELLENDER. Why is that, Mr. Saunders?

Mr. SAUNDERS. That is a thing that has grown up, I think, with us who were born and raised with them. We are not far away from the time when our forefathers had to look after these colored people. I often talk to my mother, who is still living, and she remembers very well the Civil War. She has told me time and again about the Negroes who died, not being able to take care of themselves. They died like flies because they did not know how to take care of themselves. They never had taken care of themselves. Their owners had given them their food and told them how to cook it, or probably had somebody to cook it for them. They provided the food, and when they got out on their own, their owners then could not keep them because they were

not able to feed them, and it was a terrible tragedy. They died of diphtheria, typhoid fever, and tuberculosis; and they died like flies. We still have inherited that problem, and feel that there is more or less something that we owe them in the way of a consideration, more than we do to the white folks. I think it is that reason as to why the Negroes better appeal to us than the white folks.

Senator DONNELL. Is there anything further?

Senator IVES. I have one more thing that I would like to point out, Mr. Chairman. In the North, I think there has been a tendency to put the Negro on a plane of equality more and more, and in doing that, of course, greater and greater responsibility, insofar as the Negro's own welfare is concerned, necessarily devolves upon Negroes and their sense of responsibility, by the same token has ceased to exist. That is one of the main reasons in trying to enact legislation that will produce in our society a condition wherein the Negro and all others-it is not confined to the Negro alone, and also to matters of religion and ancestry-all peoples, when it comes to work, will be on a plane of equality.

Mr. SAUNDERS. When you legislate on the problem of religion, that is not what I interpret freedom of religion to be. When you legislate on religion, you are taking away the freedom of religion. The Negro that we have in the South is not a Negro that we think you can uplift by coddling. We do not think you can improve the race by that system. We do think you have to be sympathetic with them. You people in New York would be not greatly individually concerned, and, of course, the State of New York is made up of people not different greatly from the people of Virginia. You would not individually be very much concerned about a Negro being hungry. You would not look at him. Senator IVES. We are concerned to the extent of anyone being hungry. I do not know if we would have greater concern for a Negro. If a person were hungry we would be concerned.

Senator DONNELL. Is there anything further?

If not, thank you very much, Mr. Saunders.

Senator DONNELL. I want to ask Mr. Looney just one question at this moment, if I may.

Mr. Looney, Mr. Spence in his testimony, although he is not a lawyer, mentioned the theory that this bill, S. 984, may be argued to be sustained on the power of Congress over interstate commerce. I am wondering whether or not you would find time, in the course of the preparation of the suppplement to your statement that you are going to make up, if you deem it wise to present a supplement, to give attention to this question as to whether or not, under such decisions as the Gold Clause case, for instance, in which I recall that the Court held in substance that where jurisdiction is conferred on Congress with relation to a specific field, such as interstate commerce, the power of Congress in that field is supreme-I may be somewhat inaccurately stating it, but you know the doctrine to which I refer-I am wondering if you would give us the benefit of your views in the supplement upon the point that it might be argued that, inasmuch as Congress has power over interstate commerce, it may in this legislation, notwithstanding the provisions of the various other sections of the Constitution to which you have referred, legislate constitutionally as proposed here. Do I make the point of inquiry clear?

Mr. LOONEY. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. We will appreciate, Mr. Looney, your giving attention to that point.

STATEMENT OF RAYMOND V. LONG, DIRECTOR, VIRGINIA STATE PLANNING BOARD, RICHMOND, VA.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Long, do you have a prepared statement? Mr. LONG. No, sir; I do not.

Senator DONNELL. Will you state your name, please, sir?

Mr. LONG. Raymond V. Long.

Senator DONNELL. Where do you live?

Mr. LONG. Richmond, Va.

Senator DONNELL. What is your business?

Mr. LONG. Director of the Virginia State Planning Board.
Senator DONNELL. What is the State planning board?

Mr. LONG. It is a board appointed by the Governor of Virginia to make studies, provide information to local government, State agencies, make special studies for the Governor himself on request or any legislative body that may request special studies on social, economic problems.

Senator DONNELL. Are you appointive officers?

Mr. LONG. Elected by the board itself.

Senator DONNELL. And the board itself is appointed by the Governor of the State?

Mr. LONG. That is right.

Senator DONNELL. Mr. Long, were you born in Virginia?

Mr. LONG. No; Maryland.

Senator DONNELL. What was your educational background, please,

sir?

Mr. LONG. Graduate work at Columbia University; master's degree. Senator DONNELL. Master of arts?

Mr. LONG. Master of science.

Senator DONNELL. What was your preliminary collegiate work? Mr. LONG. I took my undergraduate work at Columbia also.

Senator DONNELL. You took the bachelor degree in science at Columbia University?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Then did you live in Maryland at the time that you were attending the university?

Mr. LONG. That is right.

Senator DONNELL. Did you come back to Maryland?
Mr. LONG. No.

Senator DONNELL. When did you come to Virginia?
Mr. LONG. I came to Virginia in 1914.

Senator DONNELL. In what profession did you engage from 1914 until your appointment as Virginia State planning engineer?

Mr. LONG. I was an instructor at the State teachers' college, Farmville, Va., for 4 years; then with the State department of education from 1918 to 1942 as State school architect; and from 1942 on, as director of the Virginia State planning board.

Senator DONNELL. What were your duties in each of those capacities, in Virginia-chronologically, if you please?

Mr. LONG. Well, the instructorship, at the normal college-the usual work in instruction.

Senator DONNELL. What did you instruct?

Mr. LONG. In the philosophy of education and industrial education. Senator DONNELL. Then, in your work in the next position, in the education department of the State, what did you do there?

Mr. LONG. Supervising the construction of school buildings and making plans for school building construction.

Senator DONNELL. Then, your State planning work, I take it that you have been engaged in the formulation of plans for the development of the State-wide plan?

Mr. LONG. Well, not quite that. Our major emphasis is not trying to hang down or superimpose upon local governments plans already worked out: but to try to assist local governments to work out plans for themselves.

Senator DONNELL. Have you had occasion in the course of your work to come in contact with both the white and colored labor and with employers of both white and colored labor?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. How extensive would you say has been your experience along those lines?

Mr. LONG. Rather extensive in connection with construction of school buildings; quite a bit of labor employed, both white and nonwhite.

In connection with our planning work, we work both with Negro organizations and white organizations, trying to emphasize a point that has been touched on rather lightly, and I think should receive far more important consideration in view of this contemplated legislation, and that is the economic one. I believe our problem in Virginia and I think in the South-has a setting for this kind of thing more as an economic problem than perhaps a social one; and the social problem is one that is an outgrowth of economic difficulties. Senator DONNELL. Now, Mr. Long, would you be kind enough to proceed with your views respecting S. 984.

I will ask you first, have you read that specific bill?

Mr. LONG. I have not read the technical bill, but the summary. Senator DONNELL. You know the general philosophy of the bill and the general purposes to be effected by it?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Would you state, please, into the record, your view with respect to legislation of that type and your reasons for those views.

Mr. LONG. My personal philosophy does not permit the continued encroachment of legislation for States and localities when the States and localities are in position to do those things for themselves.

We in Virginia are strongly of the opinion that the States ought to be given an opportunity and encouraged to try to work out these problems themselves. We believe that the social implications involved in this proposed legislation, as well as the economic implications, are ones that we have been gradually correcting and that we believe we can more easily, with less dissention, work out the salvation and solution of that problem ourselves, rather than legislation coming from centralized government.

That is Virginia's philosophy, not only with regard to centralized Federal legislation but State legislation. We, as far as possible, are

trying to urge local governments to strengthen themselves through assuming larger responsibilities.

One phase of this, dealing with the economic problem-and in which we think we recognize a serious implication-is the fact that the low per capita income in Virginia is largely accounted for by the low per capita income of the Negro. That needs to be raised. They need to have new opportunities, or enlarged opportunities, or opportunities for employment that will give them every opening by which they may earn the most that their capacities will permit.

Pursuant to that end, our governor is now appointing what is known as the Virginia Advisory Council on the Virginia Economy. On that council he has appointed two Negroes, realizing that is a very important and significant part of our effort to improve our economy, which means increasing employment, providing new employment opportunities.

Senator DONNELL. What is the name of that council?

Mr. LONG. The Advisory Council on the Virginia Economy.
Senator DONNELL. Go right ahead.

Mr. LONG. I can't say what it has accomplished because it is just being organized; but there is an evidence of the fact that our government, through the leadership of our Governor, recognizes that as a problem. We are making that approach to our own solution.

Senator ELLENDER. Now, Mr. Long, that low-wage scale not only applies to colored people; there are a number of white people in Virginia that are receiving virtually the same amount as the colored people.

Mr. LONG. Quite so.

Senator ELLENDER. That is due to their lack of knowledge of jobs, jobs for which other people are better qualified, isn't that true?

Mr. LONG. Quite so. They are misplaced; not in jobs where they can exert their greatest and best capacities to yield returns.

Senator DONNELL. Do I understand that you are opposed to the bill, S. 984, as you understand it from your general knowledge of the philosophy and purpose of it, is that right?

Mr. LONG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Now, is your opposition based primarily on the fact that this is an entry by the Federal Government into this field and that it should be left either to the State governments or even to smaller subdivisions of government; or is your opposition in addition to that, based upon the proposition that it constitutes an improper interference in matters of employment and would be improper even if it were the State or the local subdivisions of the State that would work to undertake to carry out these purposes?

Mr. LONG. My objection would be to both of those at this time. If and when Virginia is ready to adopt legislation along this line, similar or somewhat related to it, as New York has seen fit to go ahead and adopt its proposal, then I think it would be quite timely for Virginia to consider on its own when and if it is ready for it. It would be most unfortunate and most inopportune so far as sound thinking and popular opinion in Virginia goes, for this kind of legislation to be imposed or superimposed upon us.

Senator DONNELL. I am not quite clear yet as to whether you mean that you think it would be unwise that it be superimposed because it