would go into effect and 100 new employees were to be hired and 20 Mexicans appeared and demanded some or all of those jobs. What would be the reaction to that in the city of Houston?

Mr. CROZIER. In obedience to this law, if the Mexicans had the skill, I think they would be employed, but there would be some resentment that would not last long on the part of the white employees. Senator DONNELL. If the Negroes should appear under the same hypothetical case, would there be the same result or reaction?

Mr. CROZIER. I think that we would resort to what I call "subtleties," and I think it would be hard for the Negro.

Senator DONNELL. I think that in Houston the illustrative case there would be a more ready acceptance of the Mexican than in the case of the Negroes, would it not?

Mr. CROZIER. Yes, sir; I believe so. I think that the voluntary approach in Houston might be impeded by enactment of this law. I assure you that the voluntary approach in Texas is rather widespread. A moment ago you were speaking about the difference in New York City. The Negro's place in the society of Texas has advanced in the last 5 years, during the war period, and subsequently, more than it had 50 years previously.

Senator ELLENDER. To what do you attribute that?

Mr. CROZIER. Senator, perhaps it is attributable to knocking their heads together, getting together in court fights, and so forth.

Senator IVES. That is what they found in New York City to be

true.

Senator ELLENDER. Do you not think that that situation can get progressively better on the voluntary basis, and through education rather than by compulsion?

Mr. CROZIER. That is my argument.

Senator ELLENDER. One morning I think that some witnesses testified that if this pending measure should become law it would be harder to enforce in Texas than it would be in Louisiana, Mississippi, or some of the other Southern States. Are you in agreement with that? Mr. CROZIER. I wondered about that statement. I am not prepared to support it. I just do not know.

Senator ELLENDER. I wanted to ask you if you felt that statement were true.

Mr. CROZIER. Our problem is more complex because of the Mexican and the Negro.

Senator ELLENDER. That may be what the witness had in mind when making the statement.

Mr. CROZIER. We would have lots of bitter resentment, and we would reap some bitter fruit from it.

Senator ELLENDER. Assuming that a Mexican or a colored worker has a skill, to what extent is he discriminated against by an employer in affording to this particular employee equality of economic opportunity?

Mr. CROZIER. Very little, Senator.

Senator ELLENDER. That is a situation that I find in my own State. Mr. CROZIER. We find that in our ranch country, and it also applies to what I said about the sheep shearer. The Mexican is a man with a ready skill in mechanics, windmill fixing, and things like that. They are in strong demand at all times, and wages are good. We derive at

this from the war effort, and much as I dislike to say it, from some things imposed upon us; our wage scale is better now, and it is continuing to be better without compulsion.

Senator DONNELL. Are there any further questions?

Senator ELLENDER. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Crozier, to what extent do you find it, if at all, in factories in Texas, whether it be in Houston or San Antonio, or any other place, where there is a difference in wages paid to a colored man in contrast to a white man, if both do the same kind of a job or both are capable of doing the job?

Mr. CROZIER. From the minor skills down to the common laborer, that thing is ironed out in all cases, until there is no discrimination at all. That is particularly true, and I have first-hand knowledge of the Mexican situation where perhaps 80 percent of them in a given small factory in San Antonio will be of Mexican descent.

Senator ELLENDER. Can you give any further reasons, Mr. Crozier, that a law of that nature could better work in a State like New York or New Jersey than it could in a southern State, or perhaps Texas, for instance?

Mr. CROZIER. I also regret to be asked that question.

Senator ELLENDER. We want your opinion on it.

Mr. CROZIER. I think this, Senators, that your treatment is more cruel to the Negroes.

Senator ELLENDER. They do not understand them, is that what you mean?

Mr. CROZIER. I employ that subtle word that you are more cruel to the Negro in a subtle sort of a fashion than we are in Texas, or in Louisiana. I sincerely believe that.

Senator IVES. I do not understand what you mean. I think it is a matter of definition of what you mean by "cruel."

Mr. CROZIER. Perhaps that is so.

Senator IVES. I do not think that the Negro wants to be the ward of society, the ward of the States, or whatever class you want to put them in.

Mr. CROZIER. May I give you an example?

Senator IVES. I know exactly what you have in mind. I do not think that the colored people in the North feel that they are being treated cruelly at all, by this kind of approach. The Negroes in the South might be; I don't know. I was not speaking of that approach. Senator ELLENDER. May I interject this thought at this point: It has been my observation since I have been in Washington that many States of the North confer on the colored people certain rights that they hope that these colored people never enjoy or attempt to participate in. For instance, in Pennsylvania, as I pointed out here during these hearings, some small Negro group forced the legislature at Harrisburg to pass a law permitting colored people to swim in the same swimming pool as whites. They even extended that so far as to put the ruling on the statute books, that they should be buried in the same cemeteries, but when the colored people came to exercise those legal rights, trouble occurred. Down South, we never attempt to put such a thing on the statute books as a law, and as something that we do not expect to be respected. If something is done for the advantage of the colored people, we expect those people to use that

privilege, but in some way you have got a lot of laws that have been placed on the statute books of the States of the North that have been placed, in my humble opinion, merely for the appeasement of these people, and when they come to exercise a legal right they get into trouble. Would you say that is one of the reasons that the North may be a little more cruel to the colored people?

Senator IVES. I would like to answer Senator Ellender, because I do not think that New York has any such statute as that in regard to cemeteries. I happen to know of one or two cemeteries where both Negroes and whites are buried. In fact, some members of my own family are buried in those cemeteries.

Senator ELLENDER. Senator Ives, I am not objecting to it, but the idea of having such a law placed on the statute books, when there is no need for it, is what I refer to.

Senator IVES. That is not the case in New York, I repeat.

Senator ELLENDER. There is such a statute in Pennsylvania and certain other States. I say that there should be no reason for it. I would not object to it myself, but what gave rise to the occasion of having that law placed on the statute books so far as such a situation is concerned?

Senator IVES. I am in agreement with you on that. There should not be any necessity for it. There are conditions which are of a "necessity" nature.

Mr. CROZIER. May I continue my indictment of New York?

Senator IVES. Because you know New York and have lived there 4 years, your testimony in my opinion is kind of valuable, so I wish you would continue.

Mr. CROZIER. To sort of soften the impeachment, too. You do not feel that your average citizen feels a responsibility for the welfare of the Negroes individually in the same proportion as we do who live among them and rather close to them, do you? I got into a taxicab one night at midnight to come to Washington at Fourth Avenue and Twentieth Street, where I live, and I did not observe that the taxicab driver was a Negro. I might also mention that I have the unfortunate speech of a Texan. I deplore that, and I detest professional Texans above all things. When I went to New York to live, I determined that I would stay long enough so that no one would detect my speech. Senator IVES. Do you like any professional "State-isms"? Mr. CROZIER. No; I do not.

Senator IVES. I do not either.

Mr. CROZIER. To continue with the anecdote about New York, while staying there I went into the dining room the second day of my stay without my friends, and I went to the same table in the dining room. About the third day, I happened to have the same little girl who had been waiting on our group, and she said, "Mister, I have been burning with anxiety to know whether you come from Oklahoma or Texas." With that question, I gave up.

To return to the fellow in the taxicab, he picked me up on Fourth Avenue, and we went up Thirty-fourth Street, and I did not detect that he was a man of color. I made some remarks, after which he turned around and said, "I can tell you are from the South." He said that he was anxious to unlimber or unburden himself to a man from that part of the country. He said that he was seeing, seeing beyond

measure, that his people in Harlem were starving to death and he was barely making a living for his wife and two children. All around him they had relief agencies, but they forgot about the poor Negro.

They are sending their food to the Lower East Side, where they have a polyglot population, while they let the poor Negroes starve to death. I do not think that they continued that practice during the depression, but they were a little calloused about a Negro starving for awhile. Senator IVES. I learned about that.

Mr. CROZIER. That was in 1933.

Senator IVES. I was in the Legislature of New York at that time. That was not brought to our attention, immediately.

Mr. CROZIER. That they were being neglected?

Senator IVES. That is right.

Mr. CROZIER. That was just one man's testimony.

Senator SMITH. I want to ask you one question from what little I have heard of your testimony-whether a bill of this kind would be approved, and whether you approve the finding on the declaration and policy of the bill, and whether your sole objection is to simply making the act compulsory, and whether you would approve a commission that would endeavor to find out where there was discrimination and make recommendations.

Mr. CROZIER. Yes, sir. I was relating awhile ago that we have a good neighbor commission that is doing a splendid service in our dealings with the State of New Mexico. I should vigorously support a comparable commission for developing a better spirit and a more sure economic square deal for Negroes.

Senator SMITH. You are answering my question affirmatively. It is just the compulsory feature of the bill that you think would cause hard feeling?

Mr. CROZIER. That is right.

Senator SMITH. It would cause irritation and resistance?

Mr. CROZIER. That is right.

Senator SMITH. In your general declaration of policy, you want to see equality of economic opportunity without regard to race, creed, and color?

Mr. CROZIER. That is right.

Senator SMITH. You would like to see home sort of commission set up to recommend that this situation ought to be strengthened out because Mr. X has been discriminated against, in the judgment of this Commission?

Mr. CROZIER. I would go that far, but I would emphasize even in that arrangement that it be done on a legal basis as much as possible, with guiding counsel from the State-wide level.

Senator SMITH. I think I would agree with you as far as that can be worked out, unless it were just an attempt to bypass the establishment of the principle by local resistance.

Mr. CROZIER. Senator, if you get a chance, I would like to have you read my three-page statement.

Senator SMITH. I will. I will study all of this testimony.

Mr. CROZIER. It stresses my views as to Latin Texas, and I think that my view represents the view of those Latins. It does not represent the view of the poor white trash and the ignorant. Our troubles all stem from that class of people. There is no State which is without that class.

Senator DONNELL. You state that you are present at the request of Gov. Beauford Jester. Are these your views which you are expressing, or are they his?

Mr. CROZIER. In a completely general way, they are both. I talked to the Governor in a general way, and he said that he wanted me to come to Washington and represent him in opposition. He said that he had a telegram from Senator Ellender.

Senator IVES. Do you have the feeling that you have discrimination? Mr. CROZIER. Of course.

Senator IVES. The reason I raised that point is because of some of the things that you have said. You have indicated here that people are fully qualified for positions, regardless of their race or religion, and that for the most part there is never any question raised, is that correct?

Mr. CROZIER. And increasingly so.

Senator IVES. I am talking about Texas.

Mr. CROZIER. Increasingly so.

Senator IVES. There is still famine existing?

Mr. CROZIER. There is in my precinct and in any precinct in the world. You answer your own question.

Senator IVES. There is in New York, but it is pretty well eliminated now. There will always be a certain amount.

Mr. CROZIER. I dare say that there will be. I believe this: Our condition has improved as much proportionately in Texas without a law as yours has in New York with a law. I believe that sincerely. Senator IVES. I doubt that, because the figures show the tremendous drop in discrimination in New York over the last few years. I think it has gone down faster than any other State in the Union, with the exception of New Jersey, and Massachusetts.

Mr. CROZIER. I am in the employment business, and I know that figures kind of lie. I operate an employment service, and I find that our statistics are very flexible. They can be made to show many things.

Senator IVES. I am well aware of that.

Senator DONNELL. Thank you very much, Mr. Crozier.

Let the record show that during the testimony of Mr. Raymond Long, Senator Ives, because of an earlier engagement, found it necessary to be absent.

Mr. Quigg is here. It is my understanding that he has not asked to appear but that he is quite willing to appear.

Will you please state your name?

STATEMENT OF FLOYD B. QUIGG, EDITOR-PUBLISHER, WOOD INDUSTRIES WEEKLY, WASHINGTON, D. C.

Mr. QUIGG. Floyd B. Quigg.

Senator DONNELL. You are the editor and publisher of Wood Industries Weekly?

Mr. QUIGG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. Is that a trade paper?

Mr. QUIGG. Yes, sir.

Senator DONNELL. It is a paper for what industry?