Mr. REUSS. I will be delighted to stay until you come back, or would you prefer to go on? Mr. STEELMAN. I prefer to go. I thought that is what we were going to do. Mr. REUSS. Then the chairman will state that we will stand in recess until 1 p.m. in this place. [Whereupon, at 12:04 p.m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at 1 p.m., the same day.] AFTERNOON SESSION Mr. DINGELL. The joint hearings will come to order. Our witness will be Mr. Dickenson, and the Chair recognizes Mr. Steelman. Mr. STEELMAN. Mr. Chairman, thank you. I left off the questioning with respect to the concession area-how many large corporations, conglomerates were operating in the system, and we have identified three or four which were in this. I would like, in just a couple of remaining questions, to complete this line of questioning. Have you ever had similar pressure, in another concession area, with respect to the master plan, where influence has been exerted on the Park Service? Is this a normal occurrence in a concession area? The negotiation, if you will, during the planning stage of future facilities that will be required-which is purely, sometimes, a subjective judgment—is a normal occurrence. This sort of thing occurs with any large concession. We must have these kinds of conversations as a part of the planning process. I am not sure that I could characterize the present situation as pressure. Certainly the viewpoints expressed by the concessioners were strongly held. As to the validity of those viewpoints, I think that is for the rest of the master planning process to determine. I participated personally in one meeting with the concessioner as a part of the review process, and I personally, as an administrator for the National Park Service, didn't feel that it was pressure; but certainly there was a good, open dialog, and the concessioner was very firm in expressing his views. Mr. STEELMAN. Well, I have not been able to conclude, for my own sake, whether or not the Park Service feels that mistakes were made in this case. Do you think mistakes were made, and if you do, has the Park Service learned any lessons that would guide your deliberations in future cases like this? Mr. DICKENSON. There is no question there have been some lessons learned, particularly that the product-the master plan draft that we were getting ready to go to the public with-was not, because of the short timeframe in which it was produced, an adequate document. It did not represent the best of the professional efforts of the National Park Service. So I think that in the sense of trying to do a good, professional job of planning in too short a time, I simply must reiterate my own view and I think that of most of my colleagues that to except the conces sioner from the planning process is a mistake. The degree of influence is a debatable matter, but I did not feel it personally, in the session in which I participated. Others of my colleagues may have. I don't know. But I think the counterbalance to that is that ultimately the public and the conservationists, citizen organizations, and others who represent perhaps our natural consitituency, are the counterbalance to any undue influence that will occur. Mr. STEELMAN. Well, they would provide a counterbalance if they were part of the deliberations. Mr. DICKENSON. That is correct, sir. And they would have had theirs in this instant process if we were able to have gone ahead with the public meetings. Mr. STEELMAN. I asked you this earlier, but for the sake of the record I would like to pose the question again: I serve on the Interior Committee, the Parks Subcommittee, and I have seen cases like this before. There is some question by Members of Congress as to the intentions of these conglomerates where they are concessioners and as I recall, you said that there was also some concern in the Department as to what appears to be a trend toward more and more of the profit motive. first, last and away from what the original intention was on bahalf of the parks and public usage. For the sake of the record. do I understand your answer to be that there was concern in the Park System about this also? Mr. DICKENSON. That is correct, sir. The movement of the larger conglomerates into the concession field is a relatively new phenomenon. There are about five major conglomerates now in the concession field, and perhaps the final answer is not in yet; but we do express a concern as to the influence that conceivably could be exerted by this much financial and possible political power. Mr. STEELMAN. I would just say for the purpose of my colleagues who are not on the Interior Committee that we passed a bill out of the committee-for some other reasons it will not be on the floor this year, but probably will be sometime in the next year-having to do with the Forest Service and the provisions of the contracts with respect to concessions on national forest lands. Several of us are trying to offer amendments to provide for congressional approval for any contracts over a certain number of acres, and although this particular piece of legislation does not involve the park system, it might be one avenue to take. I think that some serious thought will be given early in the next Congress as to whether that should include a provision for the National Park Service. That might be one way of injecting some congressional review into the operations of these concessions. I agree with the part of your testimony that we have to expect any company or individual or contractor to make a reasonable profit; but I think the profit motive has to be tempered with a respect for the original intention of Congress when the parks were established, when we decided to allow concessioners to operate in the national parks. Mr. DICKENSON. Yes, sir. I might just add that the renewal of any concession contract or the establishment of any new concession contract is subject to congressional overview. Mr. STEELMAN. In the National Park Service? Any new contract? Mr. DICKENSON. That is right. Renewal of any existing contract. Mr. STEELMAN. Is subject to congressional review. Mr. DICKENSON. When it is over $100,000 gross per year. Mr. STEELMAN. Is there an acreage limitation on that? Mr. DICKENSON. No, sir; there is not. It applies purely to the gross, anything over $100,000 gross, or 5 years. Mr. STEELMAN. I intended to ask earlier whether, to your knowledge, there are any concession contracts currently in the negotiation stage. Mr. DICKENSON. With over 332 contracts and permits, Congressman, obviously we have a certain number that are coming up for review or renegotiation at all times. I do not have that figure with me. I can provide it for you. Mr. STEELMAN. In any event, you are not aware of any large contract that would parallel the scope of the MCA contract. Mr. DICKENSON. Not that large, but we are currently seeking a concessioner to take over the Everglades National Park operation, the concession operations in the Everglades. That is the only current large one I can recall. Mr. STEELMAN. I thank the gentleman. Mr. Chairman, I yield, and I have no other questions at this time. [By letter of January 20, 1975, Mr. Dickenson provided the following list of contracts then being negotiated or renegotiated:] Area CONCESSION CONTRACTS CURRENTLY BEING NEGOTIATED OR RENEGOTIATED Acadia National Park. Amistad National Recreation Area.. Cape Cod National Seashore. Fire Island National Seashore... Fort McHenry National Monument.. Do... Do... Concessioner The Acadia Corp.. Cow Creek area (prospectus out- Town of Truro. Watch Hill Marina, Inc... Glen Canyon National Recreation Area. Lake Powell Ferry Service, Inc...... Grand Canyon National Park.... Grand Teton National Park. Services provided Meals, souvenirs, snacks. Boat ramp utilities, marina, food service, merchandising. Golf course. Gasoline, curio and souvenir sales, quick food service. Lodging, meals, marina services, charter Souvenirs, postcards, film, literature. Golfing facilities and services, tennis facil ities and services, vending machines. Marina and related services, boat trips, service station, trailer village, beverages, snacks, graveled airplane landing strip, ferry service from Hall's Crossing to Bullfrog. Medical Service (prospectus out- Medical and hospital services. Independence National Historic Park.. City Tavern (prospectus outstanding). Katmai National Monument.. Mount Rainer National Park.. National Capital Parks... Do.. Do.. Do North Cascades National Park. Olympic National Park. Mountain Guide Service (prospectus Landmark Services, Inc.. Prince William Trailer Park, Inc. Log Cabin Lodge. Saga-Hill Corp. White Sands Souvenirs, Inc.. Guest ranch. Restaurant services, food and beverage. Refreshments, mooring, launching ramp, Mall visitor interpretive shuttle service. Food, lodging marine and vehicle gasoline, Medical Service (prospectus out- Medical and hospital services. standing). Mr. DINGELL. At this time, the Chair recognizes the good friend of the chairman of the subcommittee, Mr. Reuss. Mr. REUSS. Mr. Dickenson, the basic legislation for the National Park Service was the 1916 act, was it not? Mr. DICKENSON. The 1916 act, yes. [See 16 United States Code, sec. 1, et seq.] Mr. REUSS. And the concessioner policies are set out in Public Law 89-249 of October 9, 1965? Mr. DICKENSON. Yes. [The text of Public Law 89-249 follows:] PUBLIC LAW 89-249, 89TH CONGRESS, H. R. 2091, OCTOBER 9, 1965 An Act Relating to the establishment of concession policies in the areas administered by the National Park Service and for other purposes NATIONAL PARK SERVICE CONCESSION POLICIES Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, That in furtherance of the Act of August 25, 1916 (39 Stat. 535), as amended (16 U.S.C. 1), which directs the Secretary of the Interior to administer national park system areas in accordance with the fundamental purpose of conserving their scenery, wildlife, natural and historic objects, and providing for their enjoyment in a manner that will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations, the Congress hereby finds that the preservation of park values requires that such public accommodations, facilities, and services as have to be provided within those areas should be provided only under carefully controlled safeguards against unregulated and indiscriminate use, so that the heavy visitation will not unduly impair these values and so that development of such facilities can best be limited to locations where the least damage to park values will be caused. It is the policy of the Congress that such development shall be limited to those that are necessary and appropriate for public use and enjoyment of the national park area in which they are located and that are consistent to the highest practicable degree with the preservation and conservation of the areas. "CONCESSIONERS" SEC. 2. Subject to the findings and policy stated in section 1 of this Act, the Secretary of the Interior shall take such action as may be appropriate to encourage and enable private persons and corporations (hereinafter refererd to as "concessioners") to provide and operate facilities and services which he deems desirable for the accommodation of visitors in areas administered by the National Park Service. CONTRACTS SEC. 3. (a) Without limitation of the foregoing, the Secretary may include in contracts for the providing of facilities and services such terms and conditions as, in his judgment, are required to assure the concessioner of adequate protection against loss of investment in structures, fixtures, improvements, equip ment, supplies, and other tangible property provided by him for the purposes of the contract (but not against loss of anticipated profits) resulting from discretionary acts, policies, or decisions of the Secretary occurring after the contract has become effective under which acts, policies, or decisions the concessioner's authority to conduct some or all of his authorized operations under the contract ceases or his structures, fixtures, and improvements, or any of them are required to be transferred to another party or to be abandoned, removed, or demolished. Such terms and conditions may include an obligation of the United States to compensate the concessioner for loss of investment, as aforesaid. PROFITS (b) The Secretary shall exercise his authority in a manner consistent with a reasonable opportunity for the concessioner to realize a profit on his operation as a whole commensurate with the capital invested and the obligations assumed. RATES (c) The reasonableness of a concessioner's rates and charges to the public shall, unless otherwise provided in the contract, be judged primarily by comparison with those current for facilities and services of comparable character under similar conditions, with due consideration for length of season, provision for peakloads, average percentage of occupancy, accessibility, availability and costs of labor and materials, type of patronage, and other factors deemed significant by the Secretary. FRANCHISE FEES (d) Franchise fees, however stated, shall be determined upon consideration of the probable value to the concessioner of the privileges granted by the particular contract or permit involved. Such value is the opportunity for net profit in relation to both gross receipts and capital invested. Consideration of revenue to the United States shall be subordinate to the objectives of protecting and preserving the areas and of providing adequate and appropriate services for visitors at reasonable rates. Appropriate provisions shall be made for reconsideration of franchise fees at least every five years unless the contract is for a lesser period of time. CONTRACTS, EXTENSION, RENEWALS, ET CETERA SEC. 4. The Secretary may authorize the operation of all accommodations, facilities, and services for visitors, or of all such accommodations, facilities, and services of generally similar character, in each area, or portion thereof, administered by the National Park Service by one responsible concessioner and may grant to such concessioner a preferential right to provide such new or additional accommodations, facilities, or services as the Secretary may consider necessary or desirable for the accommodation and convenience of the public. The Secretary may, in his discretion, grant extensions, renewals, or new contracts to present concessioners, other than the concessioner holding a preferential right, for operations substantially similar in character and extent to those authorized by their current contracts or permits. SEC. 5. The Secretary shall encourage continuity of operation and facilities and services by giving preference in the renewal of contracts or permits and in the negotiation of new contracts or permits to the concessioners who have performed their obligations under prior contracts or permits to the satisfaction of the Secretary. To this end, the Secretary, at any time in his discretion, may extend or renew a contract or permit, or may grant a new contract or permit to the same concessioner upon the termination or surrender before expiration of a prior contract or permit. Before doing so, however, and before granting extensions, renewals or new contracts pursuant to the last sentence of section 4 of this Act, the Secretary shall give reasonable public notice of his intention so to do and shall consider and evaluate all proposals received as a result thereof. POSSESSORY INTEREST SEC. 6. A concessioner who has heretofore acquired or constructed or who hereafter acquires or constructs, pursuant to a contract and with the approval of the Secretary, any structure, fixture, or improvement upon land owned by the United States within an area administered by the National Park Service shall have a possessory interest therein, which shall consist of all incidents of ownership except legal title, and except as hereinafter provided, which title shall be vested in the United States. Such possessory interest shall not be construed to include or imply any authority, privilege, or right to operate or engage in any business or other activity, and the use or enjoyment of any structure, fixture, or improvement in which the concessioner has a possessory interest shall be wholly subject to the applicable provisions of the contract and of laws and regulations relating to the area. The said possessory interest shall not be extinguished by the expiration or other termination of the contract and may not be taken for public use without just compensation. The said possessory interest may be assigned, transferred, encumbered, or relinquished. Unless otherwise provided by agreement of the parties, just compensation shall be an amount equal to the sound value of such structure, fixture, or improvement at the time of taking by the United States determined upon the basis of reconstruction cost less depreciation evidenced by its condition and prospective serviceability in comparison with a new unit of like kind, but not to exceed fair market value. The provisions of this section shall not apply to con |