Here we operate directly, and we can act from day to day or minute to minute as is necessary, and I feel very definitely we will have an absolute hold and control on this situation and be in a position to prevent the type of abuses which may have crept into UNRRA. There were certainly some abuses there.

Mrs. BOLTON. Is there anything in the legislation that directly points up such a matter? I have not read the bill.

Mr. CLAYTON. To begin with, the whole matter shall be handled under terms and conditions which will be prescribed by the President of the United States or the Secretary of State acting for him. That gives us a right to make any conditions in the agreements that we

want to.

In the next place, it specifically states that the distribution must take place without discrimination as to political belief, or race, or creed. It must be given to the people who need it without discrimination.

Mrs. BOLTON. The small staff you suggest is quite ample to carry that through?

Mr. CLAYTON. With the embassy staffs in these different countries, and their sources of information and the help of the press representa-tives and the radio, and the people who will go in there and observe and keep in touch with our staffs, we think we have enough sources of information to become conscious of any abuses very soon.

Mrs. BOLTON. From my own personal standpoint and the actual sight of the problems over there, it seem to me that the most imperative thing is that his country do everything possible to feed as many

as we can.

Any hungry person will go anywhere for food, and if we are going to prevent a chaos, we do need that very much, do we not?

Mr. CLAYTON. We do, very much.

Mrs. BOLTON. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions.

Chairman EATON. Mr. Jarman.

Mr. JARMAN. I have no questions.

Chairman EATON. Mr. Smith.

Mr. SMITH. Mr. Secretary, as I understand your statement, you: are asking for this appropriation and then subsequently you intend to enter into these contracts with the nations that have been named here? Mr. CLAYTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SMITH. Are we getting the cart before the horse?

Mr. CLAYTON. I don't think so.

Mr. SMITH. I think the Members of the House are going to be very much interested in knowing what these contracts provide. You are proposing to allocate some of these funds to Poland. Would you deal with the present Polish Government in that instance?

Mr. CLAYTON. Yes, sir; we have to deal with whatever government is in power in these countries at the time we undertake the program.

I went into a great deal of detail here as to what the agreements would cover.

Mr. SMITH. Is the State Department prepared to submit the form of agreement which they intend to submit to these countries?

Mr. CLAYTON. We have not drawn up the legal agreement itself but I have given you in great detail the subjects of the agreement, the conditions that would be named, and things of that kind,

If there is any one of them you would like me to go into particulars on, I would be glad to do it.

Mr. SMITH. I think the committees of the House and the Senate would be interested in knowing what sort of agreement we are submitting.

We heard a lot about what UNRRA was going to do but we know that the program as the American people understood it was not being carried out.

Mr. CLAYTON. It was carried out.

There were some failures and some faults and some things went wrong, as they certainly would in a huge program of that kind scattered over a vast territory, but the program was carried out and it did accomplish its purpose. I have not submitted the legal form of the document we propose to enter into with these countries, but I have gone, as I said here, into great detail as to what it would cover, and the conditions that would be named in it.

If you want any further information on that, I would be glad to try to supply it, but in the end, our protection is that we would reserve the right, if any of these conditions were not met, or reserve the right without any condition, to stop or alter the program at any time for

any reason.

Mr. SMITH. That is a very difficult thing to do, is it not, Mr. Secretary?

Mr. CLAYTON. Not if something goes wrong and they do not keep their agreement.

Mr. SMITH. What overlapping will there be, if any, with the Army program and this program? We are being asked to appropriate considerable money for Army purposes.

Mr. CLAYTON. I think I can say, Mr. Smith, there will be no overlapping whatever. The Army program has to do with Germany, Japan and Korea. The Army has estimated a small amount for Austria but we allowed for that in making our estimates on this bill. Mr. SMITH. Do you anticipate any difficulty in arriving at agreements with these nations that are today Russian dominated such as Austria, Hungary, Italy, and Poland?

Mr. CLAYTON. Austria is not Russian dominated. Italy is not Russian dominated, so far as I know.

Mr. SMITH. What about the other ones? What about Italy, Hungary, and Poland, assuming I am wrong about Austria?

Mr. CLAYTON. The question you asked me was whether I anticipated any difficulty in making agreements with them?

Mr. SMITH. That is right.

Mr. CLAYTON. Yes, I think there might be. I think the conditions that we lay down, while fair and proper, would be so tough that probably some of these countries might not accept. I try to answer the question frankly. I tell you that might be the case.

Mr. SMITH. Yet we will not go in there and give relief even though we know the need exists, if we cannot make an agreement? Mr. CLAYTON. Positively we will not.

Mr. SMITH. It is my personal opinion that there is need for relief in these countries but I think we must sell the Congress and the American people on the idea that there is to be no overlapping and

no waste of the taxpayer's dollars, because we are becoming increasingly conscious of a situation that needs attention.

Mr. CLAYTON. Yes, sir. I can tell you positively that if we cannot make an agreement with these countries to abide by our conditions, we will not send relief into that country.

We think we are justified in taking that position.

Mr. SMITH. I have no further questions.

Mr. CLAYTON. I am informed that of the appropriations which the Army has asked, that $22,000,000 is earmarked to go into Austria and we have taken that into account in making our calculations. Chairman EATON. Mr. Courtney.

Mr. COURTNEY. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman, but I would like to make this observation: I would like to congratulate the chairman for putting into effect the 5-minute rule. It is a thing I have long advocated without success.

In the 8 years that I have been a member of this committee, if you will examine our hearings, you will find that with a committeeship of 25, fully 60 percent of the time has been taken up by 2 or 3 or 4 members of the committee. In fact, I have heard certain members ply a witness with questions for an hour or an hour and a half; most of them incompetent, irrelevant, and immaterial, while the witness and the rest of us sat here and squirmed.

Your rule, Mr. Chairman, is going to make attendance at committee meetings a pleasure hereafter, instead of a burden as heretofore. Chairman EATON. Mr. Merrow?

Mr. MERROW. I want to join with my colleague who has just spoken in congratulating the Chair on making the 5-minute rule. I think we should abide by that.

Mr. Secretary, in your conversations with other countries, is it contemplated that Russia is going to make a contribution to this relief fund?

Mr. CLAYTON. We have not discussed the matter with Russia; no, sir. Mr. MERROW. Do you anticipate she will do anything about it? Mr. CLAYTON. I just do not know. I would like to add, however, that it is our information that the food conditions in Russia are not too good and that they have some crop failures.

I just mention that, indicating that they might not feel they were in any position to give relief.

Mr. MERROW. How much money has been earmarked for Poland? Mr. CLAYTON. We have earmarked no particular amount for any country. As I have said, we are trying to keep, as far as we can, flexible on that point.

Mr. MERROW. I just do not see how we are going to send relief, for instance, to Hungary, and particularly Poland, where you have a Soviet-dominated government and let that government distribute the relief, without advancing the Communist Party in those countries.

That is what happened under UNRRA, as near as I can find out, and that is what worries me about this situation.

I think if Russia is going to dominate those countries she had better help feed them.

Mr. CLAYTON. Mr. Merrow, may I say just a few words on that: Of course, Hungary is hungry, and starving people are starving peo

ple wherever you might find them, under what conditions of government or otherwise.

However, I think, under the conditions which we will name in these agreements, you may be sure that the people getting this relief will know where it comes from and who is supplying it, that it will be distributed without discrimination, and that the purpose we have in mind will be accomplished to prevent starvation in these countries. Mr. MERROW. I hope that can be done.

That is all, Mr. Chairman.

Chairman EATON. Mrs. Dougles.

Mrs. DOUGLAS. I will throw my 5 minutes into the pot, Mr. Chair

man.

Chairman EATON. Mr. Fulton.

Mr. FULTON. May I ask this: Generally, you intend to distribute only to these particular five countries named?

Is there any intention later, possibly, to use it for the Republican Spanish refugees in France, or some similar project?

Mr. CLAYTON. No, sir. I do not know anything about that, sir. We have given you the full story here.

Mr. FULTON. I am talking about the limit of your general aims. You do not intend to go after special projects such as that?

Mr. CLAYTON. No, sir, we do not.

Mr. FULTON. Nor do you intend to go into any Russian territorywhile they do need it, according to the New York Times--nevertheless, they have not asked for it as yet.

Mr. CLAYTON. No, sir, we do not.

Mr. FULTON. Section 2 provides [reading]:

such relief assistance shall be provided in the form of transfers of supplies or funds in such quantities and on such terms as the President may determine

Obviously, it does not say that it shall be given to anybody. It simply says "transfers."

Look over under "d," of section 2, and you find [reading]:

Upon request of the government of any country to which funds have been transferred.

We would assume then that they have been transferred to a country, but you do not in this act actually give specific authorization to transfer. First you say "transfers" and then you assume they have been received by a foreign government.

May I point out to the State Department, if you have prepared this particular act, that the first part of section 2 d is unintelligible to the ordinary intelligent reader because you say [reading]:

Upon request of the Government * pendent establishment of the Government

meaning the United States Government

any department, agency, or inde

(upon receipt, from funds so transferred, of advancements or reimbursements for the cost and necessary expenses) may furnish, or if advancements are made, may procure and furnish, supplies coming within the category of relief assistance as defined

You have two overlapping advances there, and in addition the mere statement in English is not clear.

If it means this, I am opposed to it: If it means that certain governments can come into our country and buy from a specific department or agency here, after we have advanced funds to them, then there may be too much of an advance. You are getting into the same situation that UNRRA may be in Czechoslovakia, that we may make an advance, and they do not want to give it up and although the donors may feel currently they do not vitally need it.

Mr. CLAYTON. They cannot do it under the conditions that we prescribe. It cannot happen.

They will only be given the money as they make the commitments. In most cases we expect that these countries will be able to do their own procuring. They have advanced very greatly in that respect in the last 2 years since the end of the war, and they do not need to be taken by the hand and led any more.

Mr. FULTON. May I point out that your act does not say that.
You hope to do it but the act does not say it.

In addition, on page 4, the bill does not state that the items are to be distributed for immediate use and consumption, which is one of the troubles we have been into before, that we gave items to countries and they did not immediately use them.

I see no safeguards in the bill for immediate use and consumption. I do not like the way you have this act set up, in this phrase you use on page 4 [reading]:

The people of said recipient country.

If that means those needy people resident in the recipient country, that is all right. If it means just nationals of the country, that is too close a limit. This phrase is not specifically defined.

I do not see why you limit the representation to see how this distribution is carried out, simply to the Government of the United States and our own President.

Why not open it up to any other country contributing funds to this same common purpose, and to the rest of the world. This same privilege should be reserved for the press of the world, and not limited to our own country.

Mr. CLAYTON. I assume that other countries will make their own agreements.

We should not attempt to make conditions for other supplying

countries.

I assume that they make their own conditions.

Mr. FULTON. Do you not think it would be an advantage to let our country be fully examined as to its methods of charity because we have been criticized by the other people in the world?

Mr. CLAYTON. I think that would be very useful if they want to do it and I appreciate your suggestion, because that might give us some idea of including something in our agreement with these countries which we had not otherwise thought of.

Mr. FULTON. I will return 1 minute of my time, Mr. Chairman. Chairman EATON. Mr. Mansfield.

Mr. MANSFIELD. Mr. Secretary, insofar as these six countries mentioned are concerned, am I correct in stating that only one of them, Poland, at the present time is Communist dominated?