I do not want to put it in the record now but I have gone back all through the relief program, since 1920, and have looked at the way we handled relief. We did not always do it through the Government.

Mr. WOOD. In this particular case, Mr. Fulton, there seem to be but two alternatives: You either use the Government of the country where you are giving the relief as the means of getting this relief into the commercial channels, watching it carefully at all stages with plenty of publicity, or you go out and set up a perfectly huge administrative organizaation to run soup kitchens all over the country and I think the cost of that would be really prohibitive and we would not accomplish any more, I think.

Using the Government itself is not going to be a bar to the proper use of the relief under the provisions we would lay down and the full observation we would maintain, or to the knowledge of the people who are getting it as to the source of the relief. I am sure we can accomplish that and still use the Government and avoid this tremendous cost which would otherwise be saddled upon us.

Mr. CHIPERFIELD. Mr. Chairman, may I make two more comments and then I am through?

Chairman EATON. Proceed.

Mr. CHIPERFIELD. In Mr. Truman's message he suggested ending the relief program this year, and Mr. Hoover said it should go further and include delivery into next year.

Mr. WOOD. I would say that our best estimates at the moment are that if we put this amount of food into these countries, with the possible exception of Austria, by the end of this year, they will not need this kind of relief further.

I just cannot possibly-I am not wise enough or farsighted enough to guarantee that but I say that honestly we think there is a good possibility.

Mr. CHIPERFIELD. Do you think there is $350,000,000 worth of food available?

Mr. WOOD. The Department of Agriculture tells us so.

Mr. VORYS. That is directly described by Mr. Hoover, who quotes Dr. FitzGerald, who says there is $125,000,000 in food available up to this fall, and for these countries, and if we are talking about food there is no use trying to figure how you can send them any more food than that.

Mr. Wood. I might say this, in that connection, that we have over the week end conferred with the Department of Agriculture on exactly that point and they tell us that food shipments from the United States to those countries, through the balance of this year on the basis of the present allocations planned would amount to over $300,000,000.

We are not proposing that this be entirely confined to food. As I say, there will be some medical supplies. There would possibly be some fertilizer.

Therefore, the Department of Agriculture, I believe is willing to say that as far as the projected food shipments under this bill are concerned, they are not in excess of the present plans and thoughts as to availability.

Mr. CHIPERFIELD. May I make my final comment now and I address myself to my Republican colleagues: We voted for a $6,000,000,000 cut, and $250,000,000 of this is in the 1948 Budget.

If there are no "sacred cows" are we going to bring out a bill which will be the first one to break the line? Think it over.

There is $250,000,000 in the 1948 Budget.

Mr. WooD. That is right.

Mr. VORYS. Mr. Wood, would it be possible to do this? It seems to me that in view of the matters that our chairman brought up, that involve Greece and other countries, and our budget, in view of the fact that we have the children's fund, the refugee fund ahead, in view of the fact that the President only asked for $100,000,000 to finish out fiscal year 1947, why would not the best thing for us to do be to put this bill through for $100,000,000 so the administration could appear promptly before the appropriations committee and get the $100,000,000 to take care of the immediate situation and then do a little more studying before we go ahead with the rest of the program, which may be for larger and which may be for a smaller amount. I am of course interested in what you relay to me as what the Department of Agriculture says, but it seems to me that when a former President of the United States, chosen by the present President of the United States, makes the flat statement that there is only $125,000,000 worth of food available, in a public hearing, that we are not in very good shape to go to the floor and say: "Well, we have heard otherwise, and we think Mr. Hoover is incorrect."

The immediate thing, it seems to me, we could do right now, would be to get out a bill for $100,000,000 that would show that we are interested in the relief situation. It would be a small enough amount that it would not overly encourage countries to go high, wide, and handsome and load up their budgets with a lot of rehabilitation as is in here and presented to us.

It would of course require a cautious approach by our people, but it would certainly take care of the needs here for a few months until we could take a second guess at this and have our committee, at least, fully informed as to what was going on.

Mr. MUNDT. Mr. Chairman, I think there are several meritorious suggestions that have been made by Mr. Vorys. It would give us a little opportunity to do more studying on this.

Charges have been made that Hungarian reparations will be on the shoulders of the American taxpayers.

You pass that off very glibly by saying that the reparations are fixed.

You might say the American public, the Congress, is a rubber-stamp body. It does not have to sign that treaty.

If we follow this pursuit it gives us a little chance to explore a little further this reparations problem, and make our position known to the Senate that we do not believe you taxpayers should pay those reparations and perhap before they O. K. those treaties something should be done to express the facts that in view of these relief needs all over the world, that reparations should be stepped back and let relief have the first claim.

Mr. WOOD. I did start my statement by saying, "subject to the approval of Congress."

Prior to the negotiations of the treaty there was no idea as to how much reparation payments there would be. We at least have tentative assurance on that point now.

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Mr. MUNDT. It would also give us a chance to explore a little further, the actual figures of this thing.

I am greatly distressed by the fact that Mr. Hoover tells us that there is just one man in America who does know how much food we have and his name is FitzGerald. I have never even met the man but he is the man quoted as the ultimate authority.

I think we ought to check in, at least, and see why he is the man who is supposed to know.

Mr. WOOD. It is Mr. FitzGerald we were talking with over the week end on this subject.

Mr. MUNDT. Since the reports from Mr. FitzGerald are $2,000,000 apart, I think we ought to have Mr. FitzGerald before us.

Mr. BLOOM. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Vorys mentioned Mr. Hoover, and all the people attending the meeting the other day will remember I asked Mr. Hoover a specific question: "Do you favor, Mr. Hoover, the amount asked for in this legislation, $350,000,000?" and Mr. Hoover said, "Yes."

The suggestion made by Mr. Vorys is to reduce the amount from $350,000,000 to $100,000,000.

Now the amount suggested by Mr. Hoover is $350,000,000. If there are any other suggestions, we may write that into the bill. But the amount, if you now want to bring up that question and amend the bill and have Mr. Vorys make that motion so as to amend the bill, vote on that and then make your other suggestions whenever you want to, but the amount is the first thing to be considered, and Mr. Hoover specifically said that he favored the amount of $350,000,000.

Mr. CHIPERFIELD. He covered 2 years, too.

Mr. BLOOM. That is another thing. Mr. Chairman, to proceed in an orderly way, if there is a motion made here to amend the bill, you can then make it for 1 year, 2 years, or anything you want; you can make it conditional upon any terms that you want, but the main thing is, shall we appropriate or authorize an appropriation of $100,000,000, $200,000,000, $300,000,000, or $350,000,000, as provided for in the bill. You may make any conditions you want.

Mrs. BOLTON. I confess I am not in complete agreement with the ranking minority members on this. Regarding the matter of orderly procedure, I think we need to do a great deal of discussing of the background involved, because whatever step we take is a step into a very new world. I should be quite unwilling to have a motion made to change this bill at this moment. We have a great deal more discussing to do before we take up possible changes in the bill.

I would like to say just a word about the Greek situation in that regard: Greece, of course, needs help desperately. On the other hand, we know quite definitely that the economic methods in Greece are shockingly bad.

Therefore, I would like to have a little more assurance that in our whole procedure of assuming responsibility for the economics. in Greece, we would be stipulating that they should be handled in a more adequate fashion.

For instance, if we include Greece in this relief bill, we should have the assurance that we have people over there who really know economics, who know how to handle economics of other countries, who

have an understanding of those matters, and from a very long experience.

I know of no one myself in this country who has such experience. I would suggest, that it might be conceivable that we could request England to transfer some of her highly trained civil servants who will be leaving India very shortly to be those upon whom the responsibility of economic methods in Greece would rest.

The questions that we are faced with are all very great, grave, and far-reaching questions. My own impression of the situation is, that these countries should have relief as soon as possible. Even so, I would be very regretful if we leaped through any action on this particular measure. Surely we cannot act upon it without giving serious consideration to the implications presented by our eminent chairman, suggested in the beginning, without knowing the wide reach of the whole problem that lies ahead of us and the whole new world into which we are stepping.

Mr. BLOOM. I think I am right in making this statement. Perhaps Colonel Wood can say more about it, but the fact is that after several months of consideration by the State Department, a committee was very carefully organized, and they are now stating that condition you speak of, the economic codition in Greece, for the purpose of saying what is necessary to be done there, and also for the purpose of the loan that they have asked for from the World Bank. I think that is so.

Mrs. BOLTON. I am quite aware of that.

Mr. FULTON. When will Paul Porter return to this country?

Mr. WOOD. I cannot tell you exactly. He had hoped to return by this time, but as Mrs. Bolton indicated, he found the situation even more difficult than expected.

Mrs. BOLTON. It happens that I know something of this situation and I cannot but feel very strongly about it.

Mr. WOOD. As far as it bears on the food and relief problem, we are proposing to make sure in our administration of this program that the use of their indigenous and imported supplies in food be improved. I know it can be helped immeasurably.

Mrs. BOLTON. I will be only too happy if Mr. Porter brings out something.

Mr. WOOD. Even in this connection our plans are well devised, I think, to put really able people right in the embassies to handle such problems as the relief program goes forward. Right now, they have in the embassy the agricultural and commercial attachés and monetary experts, and so on, and the American Ambassador knows what the situation is.

Mr. Hoover indicated there had been no surveys of this situation. I could show the committee a complete filing cabinet with data and surveys on each one of these countries.

However, if I might just carry on for a moment to comment briefly on the suggestion of Mr. Vorys, I do not like to take a negative point of view but we must remember in this connection, one, that the $100,000,000 figure for the fiscal year 1947 was an estimate made and put into the budget forecast back early in November.

It now appears that actually, so far as the obligation and commitment of funds is concerned, it will be necessary to use more than $100,

000,000 before the end of the fiscal year because we must not forget that after the funds are available for commitment it takes probably 2 months and certainly not much less even with the greatest celerity of action, to translate those funds into supplies arriving on the other side and flowing through the channels of distribution where they can actually be used.

Mr. LODGE. May I interrupt you right there, Mr. Wood. Did not Mr. Hoover say that this whole subject should be reexamined after the 1947 harvest was in?

Mr. WOOD. Yes; and I quite agree with him. As a matter of fact, we would be reexamining this whole subject in the State Department every day. That is why we suggested the periodic allocations, and I would welcome the opportunity, to come before the chairman of this committee and any members of the committee who would wish to be present sometime in September after the harvests are in. I think that is an excellent suggestion.

Mr. BLOOM. Mr. Chairman, I would move, sir, that since there is a little difference here with reference to the figures and the testimony before this committee, that Mr. FitzGerald be asked to appear before the committee in executive session and let us find that out.

Mr. MUNDT. I second the motion.

Mr. LODGE. I second the motion.

Chairman EATON. I wonder if the committee could meet tomorrow on this bill again.

Mr. BLOOM. I suggest this: If Mr. FitzGerald can come there tomorrow, that would be all right but I do not think it is necessary to have any further debate on this bill until we clear up the question made by Mr. Vorys and Mr. Mundt with reference to the testimony of Mr. FitzGerald.

If he can come up here, if Colonel Wood thinks he could have him here tomorrow, I have no objections to coming here tomorrow. Mr. WOOD. I would certainly try and will let the committee clerk know about it.

Mr. BLOOм. Unless notified otherwise, in executive session on this at 10:30.

Mr. SMITH. Why in executive session?

Mr. BLOOM. We are looking for information. Now Mr. FitzGerald might want to give us something in executive session that he would not give us otherwise.

Mr. SMITH. He could do this anyhow, could he not?

Mr. BLOOM. Not so well.

Mr. SMITH. It is done every time.

Mr. BLOOM. It is done every time and it gets out.

Mr. FitzGerald is going to testify against something that Mr. Hoover said. He told Mr. Hoover one thing and Colonel Wood says something else.

I do not object to open session but I think the committee can get better information and more exclusive information in executive session than he would give otherwise. It makes no difference.

Mr. SMITH. It seems to me we have had too much executive session, Mr. Chairman, and the American public today finds itself up against a buzz saw. As you so well said, all of a sudden we have had this