But I am not prepared to answer in terms of whether that was a fact at that time. I was told that it was a fact, but I have no evidence it was a fact nor, incidentally, did I give one hoot. Mr. VELDE. Mr. Counsel, I believe this would be an appropriate place to recess at this time. Before recessing, the Chair would like to make a statement for the benefit of the viewing audience. This morning I ordered that television be cut off during the testimony of Mr. Huebsch, who was represented by Mr. Esterman as counsel. This order was based on the ruling that the committee made last Monday, in answer to a motion that was submitted by Mr. Esterman, in which he demanded that all television equipment be removed and that as long as his witness, Mr. Huebsch, was on, the proceedings should not be televised. Now, there are some very serious legal problems involved in this hearing. The committee recognized that fact and without any idea in mind, I am sure, of depriving the public of this important information, acceded to the witness' demands and request, and accordingly we necessarily had to ask the television cameras to desist from further televising the proceedings. We hope this will not happen again, but if it does, of course, I hope the public understands that it is because we are not only trying to be fair, entirely fair to the witnesses, but because of certain legal problems involved in this process. 2 We will be in recess until 2 o'clock. (Thereupon, at 12 noon, the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at p. m., same day.) AFTERNOON SESSION (At the hour of 2: 10 p. m., of the same day, the proceedings were resumed, Representatives Harold H. Velde (chairman), Donald L. Jackson, Kit Clardy, Gordon H. Scherer, Francis E. Walter (appearance noted in transcript), Morgan M. Moulder, Clyde Doyle, and James B. Frazier, Jr., being present.) Mr. VELDE. The committee will come to order. Let the record show that a full quorum of the committee is present. The Chair wishes to announce that the hearing which we had this morning will be continued until tomorrow morning at 10 o'clock, due to the fact we have other witnesses we would like to hear at this time. Mr. Counsel, do you have a witness to call? Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Joe Springer. Mr. VELDE. In the testimony you are about to give before this committee, do you solemnly swear you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. SPRINGER. I do. Mr. VELDE. Before any questions are asked of the witness, I should like to make a statement. The committee, during the course of its current investigation in California, has developed information that recently there was held at Crestline, Calif., a secret Communist Party school. According to the information available at this time, the school was held during the weekend of December 5 to 7, 1952, at a place called Camp Tenaya. The committee has ascertained this camp, which is closed during the winter months, is under the operation of Joe and Preva Springer. It has further been ascertained the Communist Party school held there was not an ordinary school, but one of great importance. This school was only for Communist Party functionaries and was held upon the direction of high Communist Party officials. Also in attendance at this school, in addition to the Springers, was Max Klansky and Walter Smith, both of whom have been identified to the committee as members of the Communist Party. Mr. MOULDER. Will the Chair yield to me the opportunity to interrogate and cross-examine the witness on this subject? Mr. VELDE. If the gentleman will wait until I finish my statement, I will be glad to yield to him first. Also it is of particular concern that this school was one of a series of new schools to be held by the Communist Party for the purpose of issuing directives to infiltrate shops in key industries, and in particular, defense establishments. It is alleged that this school was concluded with an announcement that a dictatorship of the proletariat would take over immediately after a revolution to secure power, and that it would be necessary for the party comrades to safeguard against the resurgence of capitalism. The announcement also pointed out it had taken the Soviet Union 27 years to accomplish this purpose. The witness Joe Springer has been called to assist the committee in verifying this information regarding the school at Crestline. Now I yield the floor to the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Moulder. Mr. JACKSON. Does the witness object to both the video and the audio part of the television? Mr. SPRINGER. I do. Mr. JACKSON. The request is made that neither be used during the course of his testimony? Mr. SPRINGER. That is correct. Mr. VELDE. The committee will be in recess for 5 minutes. (Short recess was taken.) Mr. VELDE. The committee will be in order. Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Chairman Mr. VELDE. Let the record show at this point that present are Mr. Jackson, Mr. Clardy, Mr. Scherer, Mr. Moulder, Mr. Doyle, Mr. Frazier, and the chairman, Mr. Velde. A quorum of the full committee. Mr. Springer Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Chairman, may I make a request? The light bothers me. Mr. VELDE. As I understand it, I would like to get the picture clear, as far as television is concerned, what you do object to and what you don't object to. Do you object if the television cameras do not turn their lights toward you or photograph you during the course of the hearing? If they are allowed to continue and make photographs of other parts of the room and other people in the audience, including members of the committee, but they are ordered not to turn their lens directly toward you, do you have any objection to that? Mr. SPRINGER. The lights would bother me. I understand that television, you have to have a certain amount of equipment; and, therefore, the lights would bother me; and, if you don't mind, I would like the lights off. Therefore, I don't think you would be able to televise without lights. Mr. CLARDY. Suppose the lights were turned away from the witness, and it would be some relief up here, too, from the heat, but if we turn them to the back, away from you, would you have any objection? Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Congressman, I prefer that the television would be off. Mr. VELDE. By that, you mean both audio and video? Mr. SPRINGER. Correct. Mr. VELDE. The Chair is constrained to grant the request of the witness, in view of the vote of the committee on this matter. And again I wish to say to the television audience that we regret that it is necessary to ask the television company to turn their cameras off at this point. The meeting will proceed. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Missouri, Mr. Moulder. Mr. SPRINGER. Can we get those lights off, if you don't mind, Mr. Chairman ? Mr. VELDE. We will suspend until the lights are turned off. Mr. MOULDER. After hearing the statement by the chairman, my particular interest was directed to your case and the testimony you are about to give, especially because in my congressional district we have a number of summer camps. I understand you are the owner of a summer camp? Mr. SPRINGER. Mrs. Springer and myself are the owners of the camp. Mr. MOULDER. Information has been carried to me on the subject which I am about to interrogate you on. Mr. SCHERER. I can't hear you. Mr. VELDE. Will the gentleman yield to identify the witness and counsel? TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH SPRINGER, ACCOMPANIED BY HIS Mr. MOULDER. Your name is Joseph Springer, I understand. Mr. MOULDER. Are you represented here by counsel? Mr. SPRINGER. Yes, sir. Mr. MOULDER. Will counsel identify himself? Mr. ESTERMAN. William B. Esterman. Mr. DOYLE. Hadn't you better make sure that the witness is perfectly comfortable now and his eyes are not bothered in any way? Are you comfortable? Mr. SPRINGER. Yes. Mr. MOULDER. Where do you reside, Mr. Springer? Mr. SPRINGER. I reside in Los Angeles. Mr. MOULDER. Can you give us your exact address? Mr. SPRINGER. 4237 Drucker, D-r-u-c-k-e-r, Street, zone 32, Los Angeles. Mr. MOULDER. Where were you born? Mr. SPRINGER. 1910. Mr. MOULDER. Are you a citizen of the United States? Mr. SPRINGER. Yes, sir. Mr. MOULDER. How did you become a citizen? Mr. SPRINGER. I came here as a minor; my father took out his papers in 1928. Mr. MOULDER. The chairman in his statement referred to a camp. What is the name of the camp of which you and your wife are the proprietor and owner? Mr. SPRINGER. My wife and I run the camp of Camp Tenaya, T-e-n-a-y-a, and we took that name from a lake in Yosemite. Mr. MOULDER. Where is that camp located? Mr. SPRINGER. Crestline, Calif. Mr. SCHERER. Mr. Chairman, I really can't hear the questions or the answers. I wonder if the loudspeaking equipment is working again in this room. Mr. MOULDER. What kind of camp is it, Mr. Springer? Mr. SPRINGER. A children's camp run during the summer vacation when children get off from school. Mr. MOULDER. And for what period of time during the summer? Mr. SPRINGER. From June up to September. Mr. MOULDER. You don't operate the camp in that respect during the wintertime. Mr. SPRINGER. No. Mr. MOULDER. During this last year, during the months of, particularly the date of December 5 through to December 7 of 1952 of last year, were you then operating the camp? (At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.) Mr. SPRINGER. During the off season, so to speak, after the camp closes we usually rent it out to various organizations or groups of families that want to rent the camp in order to defray some of the expenses that are incurred. Mr. MOULDER. On those dates, December 5, 6, and 7, were you then here in Los Angeles or were you at the camp? Mr. ESTERMAN. What year? Mr. MOULDER. 1952. Mr. SPRINGER. I don't recall the exact dates. However, we have rented that camp during the month of December or November. I don't recall the exact date. Mr. MOULDER. Of last year? Mr. SPRINGER. Last year; yes. Mr. MOULDER. Now, were you there at any time during the month of December of last year? Mr. SPRINGER. I would like to consult with my attorney, if you don't mind. Mr. VELDE. You may consult your attorney. (At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.) Mr. ESTERMAN. Thank you very much. I was asking if that was amusing, because some of the audience seems to think so. Mr. VELDE. I am sorry. Let us have order in the audience so the witness can have full advantage of conferring with his counsel. Mr. SPRINGER. In view of the statement which was read here by the chairman of this committee at the outset, I would decline to an swer this question, because it would mean to testify against myself and, therefore, I claim the protection of the fifth amendment. Mr. MOULDER. It is in view of the statement made by the chairman that information has come to this committee, and an opportunity is now being given to you to clarify and to testify concerning the facts or to deny them and clear yourself, and we are just trying to find out from you whether or not this information is true. You are now being given the opportunity to tell us whether or not it is true. (At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.) Mr. SPRINGER. Mr. Congressman, you have asked not 1 question, but you have asked 3 in 1. Mr. MOULDER. I just asked you if you were at your camp during the month of December. It is a very simple question. You often go there, do you not? Mr. SPRINGER. I think that I have made my answer very clear, just a while ago when I referred to the remarks made by the chairman at the outset of this meeting-of this hearing. Mr. MOULDER. Well, were you there, then, during the month of November of 1952? Mr. SPRINGER. I think that this is the same question, and I can only give you the same answer. Mr. MOULDER. Did you operate the camp last summer? Mr. SPRINGER. I did. Mr. MOULDER. You did and your wife, also? Mr. SPRINGER. That is correct. Mr. MOULDER. And now you don't want to tell us whether or not you were back there in the month of December 1952? Is that the way I understand your testimony? (At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.) Mr. SPRINGER. I think I have answered that question before. Mr. MOULDER. Now, isn't it true, or is it a fact that during December, on the 5th, 6th, and 7th, at Camp Tenaya, at about midnight, approximately 20 people traveled there by automobiles and held a meeting at that camp, and you were present at that time? (At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.) Mr. ESTERMAN. Can we have an agreement if he says it is the same thing, that that applies to his reference to the fifth amendment. Mr. VELDE. Yes. Let it be understood if the witness declines to answer "for the same reasons," those reasons are because of the fifth amendment to the Constitution, which provide against self-incrimination. (At this point Mr. Springer conferred with Mr. Esterman.) Mr. SPRINGER. I think I have answered this question previously, and I give you the same answer to this question. Mr. MOULDER. Do you know whether or not those people were there at the camp during the month of December, on the 5th, 6th, and 7th of last year? Mr. SPRINGER. I think I have answered that before. Mr. MOULDER. Isn't it true that they were all leaders of the Communist Party of this area? Mr. SPRINGER. That is the same question again and the same answer I can give you. Mr. VELDE. That is, you decline to answer? Mr. SPRINGER. That is correct. |