Mrs. MACIA. I shall be glad to. I don't know anything about them, either. They had a daughter, Florence, who died shortly after I entered the group, so her name isn't here.

Sophia and Fran Salit, S-a-l-i-t.

Mr. TAVENNER. Did you spell the last name?

Mrs. MACIA. S-a-l-i-t. The next name I have here is Rose Sherry, but that wasn't the proper name.

Sharf, S-h-a-r-f.

I found out afterward her name was

Jack Englehardt, E-n-g-l-e-h-a-r-d-t. I don't know whether he was a member of our group or not. He lectured often, but he may have been a visitor. He came often, but he came as a lecturer.

Git Perlman, P-e-r-l-m-a-n.

Mr. TAVENNER. How do you spell the first name?

Mrs. MACIA. G-i-t. She had charge of the literary table, the books and the magazines, and so forth.

Vern and Iva Anthony.

Dave Sharf, S-h-a-r-f, and his wife Rose Sharf, whom I mentioned as Sherry in the first place.

Hymie Alpert, H-y-m-i-e A-l-p-e-r-t. He was a clothier, or something of that kind. He was in that line of business.

Doreen Holtz, H-o-l-t-z. She was working in a doctor's office. Frieda Trachgin, F-r-i-e-d-a T-r-a-c-h-g-i-n.

Frank and Fanny Emer, E-m-e-r.

Jack Lazar, L-a-z-a-r.

Lucy Warren, W-a-r-r-e-n.

Mary Goldstein, G-o-l-d-s-t-e-i-n. She and her husband owned a cleaning shop.

Bernie Nidiss, N-i-d-i-s-s.

Edith Hershey, H-e-r-s-h-e-y.

Charles Reichman, R-e-i-c-h-m-a-n.

Mr. Polasti. He was a very elderly man, also.

Mr. DOYLE. How do you spell that name?

Mrs. MACIA. P-o-l-a-s-t-i.

Mr. TAVENNER. Do you know how he was employed, if employed? Mrs. MACIA. No, I do not. Hilton Wolf, W-o-1-f. He was the one that was transferred from La Brea and Wilshire. He was transferred from that group.

Maurice Perlman, M-a-u-r-i-c-e P-e-r-l-m-a-n. He was the husband of Git Perlman when I first went into the group, but they were afterward divorced.

Jack Chassen and wife. They were transferred. I don't really know just where now.

Mr. TAVENNER. Will you spell it, please?

Mr. MACIA. C-h-a-s-s-e-n.

Mr. JACKSON. Do you have any further identification of that individual?

Mrs. MACIA. On Jack Chassen? No, I do not. Miriam was the name of the wife.

Lillian Heron, H-e-r-o-n.

Holly and Norman Perlman. I don't know anything about them, either.

Freda Spivak, F-r-e-d-a S-p-i-v-a-k.

Morris Oster, O-s-t-e-r, and in parentheses I have the name Alzar, A-l-z-a-r, so one or the other was the right name in all probability.

Mr. VELDE. May I ask the witness about how many names you have left to read? Do you have 20 or 30?

Mrs. MACIA. At least that.

Mr. VELDE. I believe at this point we will declare a recess for 10 minutes.

(Whereupon, a recess was taken from 10:05 a. m. until 10:18 a. m.)

Mr. VELDE. The committee will be in order.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mrs. Macia, the last name you gave us was that of Morris Oster or Alzar. Would you pick up again at that point? Mrs. MACIA. The next name is Rosalind Freud, F-r-e-u-d.

Mr. TAVENNER. All right.

Mrs. MACIA. John Doherty, D-o-h-e-r-t-y.

Joe Brodsky, B-r-o-d-s-k-y.

Mr. TAVENNER. May I ask you again if you can recall any additional identifying information, to make that known to the committee? Mrs. MACIA. I shall be glad to. Joe Brodski was employed at Sears Roebuck on Pico Avenue, but I don't really know in what capacity. Harry and Ned Schwartz, S-c-h-w-a-r-t-z.

B. Hirsch, H-i-r-s-c-h. He was transferred to our group from Chicago.

Harry Gilder, G-i-l-d-e-r.

Mr. TAVENNER. What was the first name?

Mrs. MACIA. Harry Gilder, G-i-l-d-e-r. He was transferred from the Boyle Heights group.

Burton Freund, F-r-e-u-n-d.

Harry Judis, J-u-d-i-s, and Minnie Judis, his wife.

John Dicho, D-i-c-h-o.

Steve and Tillie Oleksink, O-l-e-k-s-i-n-k.

Edith and Allan Bomser, B-o-m-s-e-r.

Sara Rudimon, R-u-d-i-m-o-n. That might be "a."

Mr. TAVENNER. Excuse me. I don't understand you.

Mrs. MACIA. That may be "a" instead of "i." It may be R-u-d-a

m-o-n.

Anne and Bert Witkowski, W-i-t-k-o-w-s-k-i.

Nat Bookchin, B-o-o-k-c-h-i-n.

Harold Dimsdale, D-i-m-s-d-a-l-e.

Rose Dreyfus, D-r-e-y-f-u-s.

Michael Frank, M-i-c-h-a-e-1 F-r-a-n-k.

Dora Garber, G-a-r-b-e-r.

Sam Horn, H-o-r-n.

That is all on this list.

Mr. VELDE. The Chair would like to state at this point that if there are any persons in this area who have identical or similar names to any of the people mentioned by the witness, they are at liberty and wel come to come to the committee and have any confusion which may be evidenced in their own minds or the minds of the public removed by

this committee.

Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chairman.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DOYLE. Apropos of your statement, wouldn't you also say at this time that if any of those persons who have been named want to come to this committee and deny that they were members of that group, now is the opportunity for them to do it.

Mr. VELDE. I concur with the gentleman.

Mr. DOYLE. That is a standing invitation that this committee.

makes.

Mr. CLARDY. Or if they want to repent of their sins and come forth and admit it, I suggest that we invite them.

Mr. DOYLE. Well, if they come forward and deny the testimony of this distinguished witness, if they want to, or affirm it, I invite everyone to help their Government instead of conspiring against it. Mr. VELDE. The Chair, of course, concurs with that. Proceed.

Mr. TAVENNER. I might add, Mr. Chairman, as a practical method of getting at that, if any person would write the committee, we would see that an investigator for the committee calls upon him first, in order to have some of these matters straightened out.

Mr. DOYLE. I realize that it would have to be done in an orderly manner, but it still stands as a standing invitation.

Mr. TAVENNER. Yes, sir. Mrs. Macia, were you ever observed making any of the notes which you used to compile that list? Mrs. MACIA. Yes, I was.

Mr. TAVENNER. What occurred when you were observed making

the notes?

Mrs. MACIA. I was sitting beside Sara Kusnitz and she informed me, "Oh, you musn't make any notes."

I told her, "I can't remember unless I make some notes."

And she said, "Don't ever take a name."

I assured her I would not.

Mr. SCHERER. Was Sara-what was the last name?

Mrs. MACIA. Kusnitz, K-u-s-n-i-t-z.

Mr. SCHERER. Is she the one who had a brother in the politburo in Russia?

Mrs. MACIA. Yes.

Mr. DOYLE. What is your answer?

Mrs. MACIA. Yes.

Mr. DOYLE. I am surprised she didn't ask to see the note you made on the piece of paper, when she said not to take any names, with that kind of a connection.

Mrs. MACIA. She was very courteous.

(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this point, 10:25 a. m.)

Mr. TAVENNER. This is the first list you prepared of members of the West Adams Club of the Communist Party?

Mrs. MACIA. Yes, it is.

Mr. TAVENNER. Now, did you have occasion to make another list? Mrs. MACIA. Yes, I did. We were transferred to another meeting place.

Mr. TAVENNER. Well, first of all, let me ask you over what period of time was this first list compiled.

Mrs. MACIA. Around 2 years and a half, I would say.

Mr. TAVENNER. Then you say you were transferred?
Mrs. MACIA. Yes.

Mr. TAVENNER. Transferred where?

Mrs. MACIA. I was we were transferred to-I can give you the exact address on that, I think. The West Adams Women's Club on La Brea.

Mr. TAVENNER. What do you mean you were transferred to the West Adams Women's Club, the Women's Club of the Communist Mrs. MACIA. The Women's Club building.

Mr. TAVENNER. Women's Club building.

Mrs. MACIA. Yes. It was the same group transferred to this building.

Mr. TAVENNER. The place of meeting was changed?

Mrs. MACIA. Yes; the place of meeting.

Mr. TAVENNER. There was no difference in the organizational structure of your group

Mrs. MACIA. No, it was just the same.

Mr. TAVENNER. Well, did additional people join your group after your place of meeting was changed?

Mrs. MACIA. Well, I rather think, yes. The Jefferson group, the Jefferson Club, disbanded or broke up for some reason and many of them came to the meeting at the West Adams Women's Club.

Mr. TAVENNER. Were you able to identify separately those who came from the Jefferson Club?

Mrs. MACIA. Yes, I have.

Mr. TAVENNER. I do not want to ask you at this moment who they were, because we are still considering the original membership of your West Adams Club.

Now, you say after you moved to the new location for your meetings, why, you, as I understand, prepared a list again.

Mrs. MACIA. Yes, I did.

Mr. TAVENNER. What was the purpose of that?

Mrs. MACIA. Just to add it to my membership, that was the list of membership I was making.

Mr. TAVENNER. You mean additional persons had joined from the time you prepared the first list?

Mrs. MACIA. Oh, yes, they were joining and being transferred at every meeting.

Mr. TAVENNER. Well, will you tell us the circumstances under which you prepared the second list? Were they the same as the first list? Mrs. MACIA. Yes, they were the same.

Mr. TAVENNER. I mean the same method of making the list?
Mrs. MACIA. Yes, just the same exactly.

Mr. TAVENNER. Well, when you prepared the second list did you also list the same persons whose names you listed at the first meeting in your first list?

Mrs. MACIA. Yes, I did.

Mr. TAVENNER. So that this list includes all the original members who were still members of your group at the time you prepared the second list and also the new members?

Mrs. MACIA. Yes, that is correct.

(Representative Donald L. Jackson reentered the hearing room at this point, 10:29 a. m.)

Mr. TAVENNER. Will you tell us when this second list was prepared and how long it took you to prepare it?

Mrs. MACIA. I couldn't tell you exactly when it was prepared, but it was prepared during the time I attended the meetings at the West Adams Women's Club, and I would say it took at least a year.

Mr. TAVENNER. Do you have that list, original list which you prepared in your own handwriting?

Mrs. MACIA. Yes, I have.

Mr. TAVENNER. I would like to offer that list in evidence and ask it be marked Macia Exhibit No. 6.

Mr. VELDE. Without objection, it will be received.

(The document referred to was marked Macia Exhibit No. 6 for identification, and was received in evidence.)

Mrs. MACIA. Now, you don't want me to repeat the names I have already given, do you?

Mr. TAVENNER. Well, I think it would be well to do that, because it would show how many of them remained a member of this particular group over a considerable period of time. I wonder if you would be able to tell us, as you name these persons a second time, that you have already named them.

Mrs. MACIA. Well, if I can remember, I will, yes.

The first name

Mr. TAVENNER. Maybe I can help you with that part of it. Proceed with your list just as you prepared it. That is, of the persons who were members of your club at the time you met at the West Adams Women's Club building. By that I want to make it clear, that is the Communist club meeting in a building owned by the Women's Club.

Mr. VELDE. May I ask what the date of those meetings, what year those meetings were held?

Mrs. MACIA. Well, it would be very hard for me to say because I don't know. Some of these receipts, however, came from those meetings. Some of the receipts I have already given, but I can't give you the date because I don't recall.

Mr. DOYLE. In other words, counsel, you are making it clear, if I understand it, that the Women's Club merely rented the building to this group?

Mrs. MACIA. Yes, that is true.

Mr. TAVENNER. That is right.

Mr. DOYLE. That is right, Mrs. Macia?

Mrs. MACIA. Yes, that is right. That is correct.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Chairman, it may be that I can help you, from the testimony, as to the date. The witness has testified that she joined this group of the Communist Party in 1943, and my recollection is it was in August of 1943, and it took about two and a half years to prepare the list which she first testified to, and then later it took a year to prepare the list which she now has.

Mr. DOYLE. I am assuming, Mr. Chairman, that the Women's Club did not know it was a Communist cell that were using their building. I am assuming that.

Mr. JACKSON. Is that the case?

Mr. DOYLE. I don't know.

Mrs. MACIA. I hope it is.

Mr. DOYLE. I am assuming that the Women's Club did not knowingly rent this building to a Communist cell.

Mrs. MACIA. I don't see how they could have helped knowing.

Mr. DOYLE. I make that statement in view of the discussion. I think it ought to be made clear in this hearing what the fact was, so the Women's Club will not be criticized, if they are not subject to criticism.

Mrs. MACIA. That is true.