with a terrorist organization today, al Qaeda, and there are other terrorist organizations that by then could be just that much worse. I think it'll be easier to conceal things and move things around. Senator HUTCHINSON. So with great risk now, waiting could be a much greater risk for our security and the world. General MYERS. I think that's certainly the potential. Senator HUTCHINSON. Mr. Secretary, we have had discussions before about protection against chemical and biological weapons, and I wondered if you could comment on necessary counter measures should Saddam utilize a weapon of mass destruction-should military action by the United States be required at some point. Secretary RUMSFELD. Well, I think General Myers commented on the capabilities of our forces to deal with a WMD attack that affected our forces or neighboring countries or staging areas. Senator HUTCHINSON. General Myers. General MYERS. The only thing I'd add to my previous comments is that we are better off than we were 10 years ago, both in warning and in our protection. I think we're better able to handle emerging targets that might be related to WMD delivery systems or movement of material. We've also just started inoculations again for anthrax 3 days ago. I think the steps that can be taken to protect our forces, no matter where they are stationed, are much better than they have been and are fairly robust. Senator HUTCHINSON. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman LEVIN. Thank you, Senator Hutchinson. Secretary RUMSFELD. Mr. Chairman, may I clean up one item in my comment to Senator Kennedy? I just ran through my head that he mentioned the possibility that Israel might engage in a nuclear response were they attacked. I would not want to leave that hanging out there with the implication that I agree with that. Chairman LEVIN. Senator Byrd. Senator BYRD. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding these hearings. Mr. Secretary, to your knowledge, did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapons during the Iran-Iraq war? Are we, in fact, now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sown? Secretary RUMSFELD. Well, certainly not to my knowledge. I have no knowledge of United States companies or Government being involved in assisting Iraq develop chemical, biological, or nuclear weapons. Senator BYRD. Mr. Secretary, let me read to you from the September 23, 2002, Newsweek story. I read excerpts because my time is limited. "Some Reagan officials even saw Saddam as another Anwar Sadat capable of making Iraq into a modern secular state just as Sadat had tried to lift up Egypt before his assassination in 1981. "But Saddam had to be rescued first. The war against Iran was going badly by 1982. Iran's human wave attacks threatened to overrun Saddam's armies. Washington decided to give Iraq a helping hand. After Rumsfeld's visit to Baghdad in 1983, U.S. intelligence began supplying the Iraqi dictator with satellite photos showing Iranian deployments. Official documents suggest that America may also have secretly arranged for tanks and other military hardware to be shipped to Iraq in a swap deal-American tanks to Egypt, Egyptian tanks to Iraq. Over the protests of some Pentagon skeptics, the Reagan administration began allowing the Iraqis to buy a wide variety of "dual-use" equipment and materials from American suppliers. According to confidential Commerce Department export-control documents obtained by Newsweek, the shopping list included a computerized database for Saddam's interior ministry, presumably to help keep track of political opponents, helicopters to transport Iraqi officials, television cameras for videosurveillance application, chemical-analysis equipment for the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission, IAEC, and, most unsettling, numerous shipments of bacteria, fungi and protozoa to the IAEČ. According to former officials, the bacteria cultures could be used to make biological weapons, including anthrax. The State Department also approved the shipment of 1.5 million atropine injectors for use against the effects of chemical weapons, but the Pentagon blocked the sale. Yet, the helicopters, some American officials later surmised, were used to spray poison gas on the Kurds. "The United States almost certainly knew, from its own satellite imagery, that Saddam was using chemical weapons against Iranian troops. When Saddam bombed Kurdish rebels and civilians with a lethal cocktail of mustard gas, sarin, tabin, and VX in 1988, the Reagan administration first blamed Iran before acknowledging, under pressure from congressional Democrats, that the culprits were Saddam's own forces. There was only token official protest at the time. Saddam's men were unfazed, and Iraqi audiotape later captured by the Kurds records Saddam's cousin, Ali Hassan alMujid, known as Ali Chemical, talking to his fellow officers about gassing the Kurds. 'Who is going to say anything,' he asked, 'the international community? F-blank them!"'" Now, can this possibly be true? We already knew that Saddam was a dangerous man at the time. I realize that you were not in public office at the time, but you were dispatched to Iraq by President Reagan to talk about the need to improve relations between Iraq and the U.S. Let me ask you again. To your knowledge, did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapons during the Iran-Iraq war? Are we, in fact, now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sown? The Washington Post reported this morning that the United States is stepping away from efforts to strengthen the biological weapons convention. I'll have a question on that later. Let me ask you again. Did the United States help Iraq to acquire the building blocks of biological weapons during the Iran-Iraq war? Are we, in fact, now facing the possibility of reaping what we have sown? Secretary RUMSFELD. I have not read the article. As you suggest, I was, for a period in late 1983 and early 1984, asked by President Reagan to serve as Middle East envoy after the 241 Marines were killed in Beirut. As part of my responsibilities, I did visit Baghdad. I did meet with Mr. Tariq Aziz, and I did meet with Saddam Hussein and spent some time visiting with them about the war they were engaged in with Iran. At the time, our concern, of course, was Syria and Syria's role in Lebanon, Lebanon's role in the Middle East, and the terrorist acts that were taking place. As a private citizen, I was assisting only for a period of months. I have never heard anything like what you've read. I have no knowledge of it whatsoever, and I doubt it. Senator BYRD. You doubt what? Secretary RUMSFELD. The questions you've posed as to whether the United States of America assisted Iraq with the elements that you listed in your reading of Newsweek and that we could conceivably now be reaping what we've sown. I doubt both. Senator BYRD. Are you surprised at what I've said? Are you surprised at this story in Newsweek? Secretary RUMSFELD. I guess I'm at an age and circumstance in life where I'm no longer surprised about what I hear in the newspapers and the magazines. Senator BYRD. No, that's not the question. I'm of that age, too, somewhat older than you. Secretary RUMSFELD. Not much. Senator BYRD. How about that story I've read? Secretary RUMSFELD. I see stories all the time that are flat wrong. I just don't know. Senator BYRD. What about this story? This story specifically. Secretary RUMSFELD. I have not read it. I listened carefully to what you said, and I doubt it. Senator BYRD. All right. Now, The Washington Post reported this morning that the United States is stepping away from efforts to strengthen the Biological Weapons Convention. Are we not sending exactly the wrong signal to the world at exactly the wrong time? Doesn't this damage our credibility in the international community at the very time that we are seeking their support to neutralize the threat of Iraq's biological weapons program? If we supplied, as the Newsweek article said, the building blocks for germ and chemical warfare to this madman, this psychopath, in the first place, how do we look to the world to be backing away from this effort to control it at this point? Secretary RUMSFELD. Well, Senator, I think it would be a shame to leave this committee and the people listening with the impression that the United States assisted Iraq with chemical or biological weapons in the 1980s. I just do not believe that's the case. Senator BYRD. Well, are you saying that the Newsweek article is inaccurate? Secretary RUMSFELD. I am saying precisely what I said, that I didn't read the Newsweek article, but that I doubt its accuracy. Senator BYRD. I'll be glad to send you up a copy. Secretary RUMSFELD. I was not in Government at that time, except as a special envoy for a period of months, so one ought not to rely on me as the best source as to what happened in that mid1980s period that you were describing. I will say one other thing. On two occasions, when you read that article, you mentioned the IAEC, which, as I recall, is the International Atomic Energy Commission, and some of the things that you were talking about were provided to them, which I found quite confusing, to be honest. With respect to the biological weapons convention, I was not aware that the United States Government had taken a position with respect to it. It's not surprising, because it's a matter for the Department of State, not the Department of Defense. If, in fact, they have indicated, as The Washington Post reports, that they are not going to move forward with an enforcement regime, it's not my place to discuss the administration's position when I don't know what it is. But I can tell you from a personal standpoint, my recollection is that the biological convention never was anticipated that there would even be thought of to have an enforcement regime, that an enforcement regime where there are a lot of countries involved who were on the terrorist lists who were participants in that convention, that the United States has, over a period of administrations, believed that it would not be a good idea, because the United States would be a net loser from an enforcement regime. But that is not the administration's position. I just don't know what the administration's position is. Chairman LEVIN. We're going to have to leave it there, because you are over time. Senator BYRD. This is a very important question. Chairman LEVIN. It is, indeed, but you're over time. I agree with you on the importance, but you're over time, Senator. Senator BYRD. I know I'm over time, but are we going to leave this question out there dangling? Chairman LEVIN. Well, just one last question. Senator BYRD. I ask unanimous consent that I may have an additional 5 minutes. Chairman LEVIN. No, I'm afraid we can't do that. Well, wait a minute. Ask unanimous consent, I can't stop you from doing that. Senator INHOFE. I object. [Laughter.] Senator BYRD. Mr. Chairman. Chairman LEVIN. Just one last question. Would that be all right? Senator Byrd, if you could just take one additional question. Senator BYRD. Now, I've been in this Congress 50 years. I've never objected to another Senator having a few additional minutes. Now, Mr. Chairman, I think that the Secretary should have a copy of this story from Newsweek that I've been querying him about. I think he has a right to look at that. [Laughter.] Chairman LEVIN. Could somebody take that out to the Secretary? Senator BYRD. Very well. Now, while that's being given to the Secretary, Mr. Secretary, I think we're put into an extremely bad position before the world today if we're going to walk away from an international effort to strengthen the biological weapons convention against germ warfare, advising our allies that the U.S. wants to delay further discussions until 2006, especially in the light of the Newsweek story. I think we bear some responsibility. Senator INHOFE. Mr. Chairman, point of order. Chairman LEVIN. Could we just have this be the last question? If you would just go along with us, please, Senator Inhofe. Senator INHOFE. I would only say, though, in all respect to the Senator from West Virginia, we have a number of Senators here, we have a limited time of 6 minutes each, and we're entitled to have our 6 minutes. This should be a short question if it's the last question. Chairman LEVIN. If we could just make that the last question and answer, I would appreciate it. The Chair would appreciate the cooperation of all Senators. Secretary Rumsfeld, could you answer that question, please? Secretary RUMSFELD. I'll do my best. Senator, I just am glancing at this, and I hesitate to do this because I have not read it carefully, but it says here that, "According to confidential Commerce Department export control documents obtained by Newsweek, the shopping list included." It did not say that there were deliveries of these things. It said that Iraq asked for these things. It talks about a shopping list. Second, in listing these things, it says that they wanted "television cameras for video-surveillance applications, chemical-analysis equipment for the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission, the IAEC," and that may very well be the Iraqi Atomic Energy Commission, which would mean that my earlier comment would not be correct, because I thought it was the International Atomic Energy Commission. This seems to indicate it's the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission. Senator BYRD. Mr. Chairman, may I say to my friend from Oklahoma, I'm amazed that he himself wouldn't yield me time for this important question. I would do the same for him. Mr. Chairman, I would like to ask Senator CLELAND. I yield my 5 minutes, Senator. Mr. Chairman, I ask the Secretary to review Pentagon records to see if the Newsweek article is true or not. Will the Secretary do that? Secretary RUMSFELD. It appears that they are Department of Commerce records, as opposed to Pentagon, but I can certainly ask that the Department of Commerce and, to the extent it's relevant, the Department of State look into it and see if we can't determine the accuracy or inaccuracy of some aspects of this, yes, sir. Chairman LEVIN. We'll go one step further than that. I think the request is that the Defense Department search its records. Will you do that? Secretary RUMSFELD. We'll be happy to search ours, but this refers to the Commerce Department. Chairman LEVIN. We will ask the State Department and the Commerce Department to do the same thing. Secretary RUMSFELD. Fine. We'd be happy to. [The information referred to follows:] HOW SADDAM HAPPENED NEWSWEEK-SEPTEMBER 23, 2002 By Christopher Dickey and Evan Thomas; With Mark Hosenball, Roy Gutman and John Barry The last time Donald Rumsfeld saw Saddam Hussein, he gave him a cordial handshake. The date was almost 20 years ago, December 20, 1983; an official Iraqi television crew recorded the historic moment. The once and future_Defense secretary, at the time a private citizen, had been sent by President Ronald Reagan to Baghdad as a special envoy. Saddam Hussein, armed with a pistol on his hip, seemed "vigor |