could work toward some minimum arrangement so that suspicion could be allayed, and you could have confidence, not necessarily in each other, but in the effectiveness of the system, then gradually over a period of time certain confidence will build up.

I would like to just say this off the record. [Discussion off the record.]

REGIONAL ARMS CONTROL

Senator HUMPHREY. The other point I wanted to emphasize, if the Chairman will permit it, is this business of continental or regional arms control measures. I am not talking about Central Europe, which is a very delicate problem because of the power structure there. I think ultimately we may very well want to take the diplomatic offensive, not on the basis of trying to come to grips with the Soviets-I do not think they are willing to come to grips right now; I think Khrushchev is going through a big crisis at home, both ideologically and economically, and he is more or less in a position where he does not quite know what move to make. This would be just a personal calculation.

I think that from our point of view, worldwide, it would be good if we could line up some support outside the Soviet bloc, with the non-aligned or with some of our allies, and with the so-called neutrals, to talk about how you reduce armament structures in the Western Hemisphere or in Africa or in Asia or in Southeast Asia, or any other place-just pick places. As you indicated so well here-and I can understand your feeling about it, of viewing a cynical group-they say, "This is your problem, you talk about it." In the meantime, they want to arm and increase tensions in areas which could precipitate a struggle between the big powers.

In other words, these little fellows get out here in these back alley fights, and the next thing you know, it is out on the main boulevard with the big fellows. I think the regional or the sectional or continental disarmament proposals may have some real appeal. Secretary RUSK. I hope very much we can find some way to move those along. I am sure that is right, Senator.

But I must say, at Geneva we did not get anywhere with the regional members in this direction.

Senator HUMPHREY. They were in the big ballpark.

Secretary RUSK. Brazil, for example, was interested in a nuclearfree Latin America. This is a free ride for them. It does not require anything of them, because they were not involved in the nuclear business now, but they were not interested in trying to sit down to see what we in Latin America can do about limiting the arms race among ourselves. I suppose one of the reasons is that-we have talked about this in this committee before-it is very likely none of these governments down there is in a position to say to its armed forces, "You have to be cutting down.

Senator HUMPHREY. There seems to be some evidence of that of late.

STATEMENT TO THE PRESS

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Secretary, the press, I know, is going to ask me questions, as they always do-I have to say something. Would it

be fitting to say that nothing of significance relative to test ban or disarmament fields was achieved, other than a clear understanding of the position?

Secretary RUSK. I think that would be accurate, and that is the situation.

The CHAIRMAN. Chalmers Roberts wrote a piece on Berlin. Would it be advisable to say you feel a modus vivendi has been arrived at on Berlin?

Secretary RUSK. I would not say that.

The CHAIRMAN. He said that, you know.

Secretary RUSK. I know he said that, but that was speculation that was not based upon facts or briefing. I think the only thing that one can really point to there is the two governments have agreed to continue the talks, and that itself is worth pursuing, or is to that degree encouraging. But I would not go much further than that, because on the merits of any of these questions, we did not really get any agreement.

The CHAIRMAN. They nearly always ask me whether the Secretary was pessimistic or optimistic. This is a stock question. What would you say?

Secretary RUSK. I would say that when I met the committee before I went over there, I was neither pessimistic nor optimistic, and I seem to come back in the same mood.

The CHAIRMAN. You are neither pessimisitc nor optimistic.
Secretary RUSK. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. But very patient.

Do you feel it was worthwhile? They will ask me that.

Secretary RUSK. I do think it was worth having the Foreign Ministers there for 2 weeks to help get the conference off in a good atmosphere, and to get the work of the conference established. So from that point of view it was worthwhile, and the exchanges with Gromyko were definitely worth having.

The CHAIRMAN. You got better acquainted and you understand each other better, is that right?

Secretary RUSK. We clarified each other's position.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, they will ask you, I guess. They may not bother me too much.

Secretary RUSK. I think I will just pass them by, because I passed them by over on the House side. I will tell them it is for the chairman of the committee to comment.

The CHAIRMAN. It is going to be very brief.

[Whereupon, at 5:30 p.m., the committee adjourned, subject to call of the Chair.]

BRIEFING ON THE SOVIET UNION

TUESDAY, APRIL 3, 1962

U.S. SENATE,

COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS,
Washington, DC.

The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:20 a.m., in room F-53, U.S. Capitol Building, Hon. J. William Fulbright (chairman of the committee) presiding.

Present: Chairman Fulbright and Senators Sparkman, Lausche, Wiley, Hickenlooper, and Capehart.

Also present: Mr. Marcy and Mr. St. Claire of the committee staff; and Frederick Dutton, Assistant Secretary of State for Congressional Relations.

Consideration of the bill (S. 2824) To amend the Bretton Woods Agreements Act to authorize the United States to participate in loans in the International Monetary Fund to strengthen the international monetary system was held over on the request of Senator Lausche. Without objection, the committee approved for report the nomination of Robert Woodward to be Ambassador to Spain.

The CHAIRMAN. The committee will come to order.

Senator Wiley, this is Ambassador Thompson, our Ambassador in Moscow. He is here for a briefing, not for any official reason-that is, no objection to be taken.

Senator WILEY. I am sure he has a lot to tell us.

The CHAIRMAN. I am, too.

We are very pleased to have you. I regret that we have several conflicting meetings this morning. Finance is meeting on the tax bill, and several others. So we won't have many members here, I am afraid. But I would like to put on the record whatever we can, so we will have it available for their information-anything you have to say.

There have been some very interesting recent developments in your part of the world.

If you will just say in your own words whatever you think is appropriate for the information of the committee, we will appreciate it very much.

STATEMENT OF HON. LLEWELLYN E. THOMPSON, JR.,
AMBASSADOR TO THE SOVIET UNION

Mr. THOMPSON. Fine, Senator. I hope the usual thing will apply. It is always unhelpful to me if any views are attributed to me outside.

The CHAIRMAN. This is an executive session. This will not be published and not be made available to the press.

Mr. THOMPSON. As you know, any predictions about the Soviet Union are very dangerous. This thing changes from day to day. You never know what is coming next. They are having a meeting of the Supreme Soviet on April 10, and I think we will get some clues then as to where they are going. There are probably going to be quite a few changes inside, in both the government and the party. And particularly in agriculture.

OPTIMISTIC OVER RELATIONS WITH SOVIETS

Overall, I think, leaving the Berlin question aside, I am pretty optimistic about the situation now. I think the Soviets are running into a lot of trouble. As you undoubtedly know, this is true particularly in agriculture. Their output in 1961 was only 1 percent over 1960, which was itself not a good year. The population is increasing. Their plan calls for an 8 percent increase.

The CHAIRMAN. Is this just agriculture you are talking about? Mr. THOMPSON. Yes, just agriculture.

Senator WILEY. What do you mean by saying you are optimistic? Mr. THOMPSON. I am optimistic about our relations with them, because I think these internal troubles they are having are going to limit their ability to make trouble for us.

The CHAIRMAN. Make them a little more agreeable.

Mr. THOMPSON. That is right.

Their problem in agriculture I think is a long range one and a deep one. I don't think they are going to get over it in a short while. They don't have any real answer now.

MORE INVESTMENT IN AGRICULTURE

One of the things that they will obviously have to do is put more investment in agriculture, and this means they are going to have to take it away from something-at the same time that they have been stepping up their military expenditure. This means it has to come from somewhere, and it is very difficult for them to take it out of consumer goods, because this is one of the things they need to increase to deal with their agricultural problem.

In agriculture, they have to put in more investment in fertilizer, machines, better seed, but they also have to give these peasants something to buy with the money they make. A fellow was out in the new lands area last fall and told me he was being conducted around by a Russian-this was not an American-and he said they saw nothing but women in the fields. About 54 percent of their agricultural labor is female anyway, but in this case it was about 100 percent. So the Soviet officials asked the women where the men were, and they said they were in the village drinking tea. They went up to the village. The place was full of men sitting around. The Russian said, "Why aren't you out there working?" They said, "Why should we, we have money and nothing to buy with it." And for them to step up their consumer goods production in a country that big, with as many people involved as there are, is a pretty big undertaking for them.

In order to meet their 7-year plan, they have got to keep up their investment in heavy industry.