Senator O'MAHONEY. We were told that the leaders of the American League felt it was very untimely, an untimely moment at which to bring up this discussion.

Mr. GRIFFITH. Well, I will tell you the truth, it was not on the agenda. [Laughter.]

Senator O'MAHONEY. Was it not because this bill was over here? Mr. POWELL. Senator, may I interpose?

Senator O'MAHONEY. Yes, Mr. Powell.

Mr. POWELL. Just to clear up one thing that was said. Speaking for myself, and I agree with what Mr. Griffiths has said, the board is not made up of yes men, and while we may take Mr. Griffith's advice on matters relating to the playing of baseball, I can assure the Senator that in other matters he is only 1 man among 7.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Are you on the board?

Mr. POWELL. Yes, sir.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Are you a member of the board of directors? Mr. POWELL. Yes, sir.

Senator O'MAHONEY. What was your position on this matter?

Mr. POWELL. I voted "Yes" with the others as Mr. Griffith has said, but Senator, mind you

Senator O'MAHONEY. You voted "Yes?"

Mr. POWELL. But mind you, Senator

Senator O'MAHONEY. To do what?

Mr. POWELL. Merely to submit to the American League meeting in Baltimore on July 7 the question of whether or not it would be advisable to move the Washington franchise to any one of these cities named.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Did you go over there with Mr. Griffith?
Mr. POWELL. No, Senator, I did not. May I finish my answer?
Senator O'MAHONEY. Certainly.

Mr. POWELL. We did not have before us a proposal from any city at that time. When I voted on this matter and I think this is true of all or most all of the other directors I did not even know the Minneapolis representative had approached Mr. Griffith in Florida. I did not learn that until after June 17. We had no proposition before us on June 17.

Senator O'MAHONEY. On June 17 when you voted to authorize Mr. Griffith to take the matter up there was no proposition before the club?

Mr. POWELL. That is correct, before the board; that is right.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Why did the board of directors take up the question informally?

Mr. POWELL. As Mr. Griffith has said, one director made the statement that he thought the matter should be presented to the American League. I assumed that there was

Senator O'MAHONEY. What matter was he talking about?

Mr. POWELL. Sounding out the American League representatives on the question of transferring the Washington franchise to one of these cities named.

Senator O'MAHONEY. How did you hear about these cities?

Mr. POWELL. In this instance from the mouth of the director who made the motion.

Senator O'MAHONEY. That director was the man who took the initiative, was he?

Mr. POWELL. He took the initiative to the extent of making the motion, Senator.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Was he trying to shift the team to one of these cities?

Mr. POWELL. I cannot answer for him. I do not know.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Let me say, this is getting rather amusing. I hereby invite the unnamed director of the Washington team who made this suggestion to the board of directors to identify himself to this committee so that he may be called before the committee to testify upon this matter, and tell why he came to the conclusion that the Washington team should investigate the possibility of moving to Minneapolis.

If we cannot get the testimony from you, Mr. Griffith, or from Mr. Powell, I hope that this undisclosed member of the Washington board of directors will himself appear voluntarily and take us into his confidence.

Mr. GRIFFITH. Sir, the board of directors that we have reference to is not in this country at this time, and to save time, Mr. Leo De Orsey, the member of our board is the one that brought the matter up. Senator O'MAHONEY. I know Leo De Orsey very well.

Mr. GRIFFITH. He is in Canada at this time.

Senator O'MAHONEY. I do not want to put on a Casey Stengel show here, so let me ask you now

Mr. GRIFFITH. Let me say one other thing: the other cities named like Dallas, Fort Worth, Houston, Montreal, none of them have ever approached me directly or any other member of the board to my knowledge.

The only thing that I know is what I read in the papers where they are going to build these mammoth stadiums in Texas and are going to build a stadium in Montreal, and we did get a brochure from Dallas, Fort Worth, that I have up in my desk. Nobody has seen it. In fact, I have not even looked at it myself, but we have not been interested in moving our franchise.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Do you want the Washington baseball fans to understand from you now that regardless of anything that transpired in the past, so far as you are concerned, the Washington team is here in Washington to stay?

Mr. GRIFFITH. Yes, sir; that is what I would like them to believe and that is what I believe myself. We want to stay in Washington. Senator O'MAHONEY. What confidence can the fans repose in that statement in view of the record of what transpired, the record that you have been talking about, of the request of the board of directors that you take it up with the league, in view of the fact that the league discussed it with you, in view of the fact that statements were made that it was a very untimely matter to discuss while this bill was pending in Congress?

Do you think that the board of directors of the Washington team, or any member of the board, will bring the matter up again? Mr. GRIFFITH. This was just exploratory over there in Baltimore. Senator O'MAHONEY. Are you through exploring, Mr. Griffith? Mr. GRIFFITH. Yes, sir; I am. [Laughter.]

Senator O'MAHONEY. How about the board of directors? Are they through exploring?

Mr. GRIFFITH. I would assume so, from the meeting we had last week, July 9.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Senator Carroll?

Senator CARROLL. I want to ask just a few questions I think might be good for the record.

I might ask Mr. Powell, what is a franchise?

Mr. POWELL. A franchise is a right given by the American League, in our case to operate a major league baseball team in the city of Washington.

Senator CARROLL. The American League issues it. Is it revocable? Mr. POWELL. It is revocable for cause.

Senator CARROLL. And in order to move a team from one geographic area to another requires the permission of the

Mr. POWELL. It requires the permission or affirmative vote of 6 of the 8 teams in the league.

Senator CARROLL. Six of the eight teams?

Mr. POWELL. Yes, sir.

Senator CARROLL. As I understand your discussion, Mr. Griffith, there had been some exploratory talk going on for some time, a discussion about Minneapolis and other teams, about a possibility of moving. You are in business for a profit. This is why you have a franchise and this is the purpose of baseball; is it not?

Mr. GRIFFITH. Well, the way I look at it you are in baseball to make a profit, that is correct, sir.

Senator CARROLL. That is right. And when you were talking about this, did you make this statement about-what is this statement about your life? Were you talking about your physical life or your economic life?

Mr. GRIFFITH. Economic life.

Senator CARROLL. That you would not pull the team out of Washington.

Now the point I want to make is this, I think Senator O'Mahoney has been very fair in asking these questions because it is quite clear from the testimony, there is nothing wrong about negotiating for a change of city. O'Malley did it with Brooklyn and the New York Giants have done it. Now the question, and I think it is a very pertinent question, has your board of directors authorized you or anyone else to go to the American League for the purpose of moving this team? But first, a franchise is a very valuable asset; is it not? Mr. GRIFFITH. Yes, sir.

Senator CARROLL. And if the American League had granted the right to remove that franchise, you had that under consideration, did you not?

Mr. GRIFFITH. We were just trying to find out how they felt about the franchise being in the city of Washington; yes, sir.

Senator CARROLL. You knew how they felt because they granted you the franchise to be here and you had it for years. What you really wanted to find out is how they felt about your moving it; wasn't that the purpose of your visit?

Mr. GRIFFITH. Yes, sir.

Senator CARROLL. There is nothing illegal about that at all.
Mr. GRIFFITH. No, sir.

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Senator CARROLL. But this is pertinent. The reversal of your action came at a time when the Congress was considering this very comprehensive piece of legislation. If I might press the question put by the chairman, if the Congress should pass this legislation, do you fully intend not to move your team if the Congress passes this legislation? This is the principal question.

How do you feel about that personally? The Griffith family owns 52 percent of the stock. You have control of this franchise.

Mr. GRIFFITH. Yes, sir.

Senator CARROLL. What is your real intention? Not because you are testifying before a committee and not because of the pending legislation, but what do you propose to do about the future?

Mr. GRIFFITH. We want to stay in Washington, Senator Carroll, as long as it is humanly possible.

Now, as you said, it is a business, baseball is a unique business and if we do not get enough fans through our gate, then we would have to really sit down and do a lot of talking to find out how we could get the revenue to carry on our business here in Washington.

Senator CARROLL. I read in this morning's paper, Mr. Chairman—I do not know whether it has any bearing on whether you stay in Washington-that the other body has a bill with reference to a stadium. Does that involve the Washington Senators?

Mr. GRIFFITH. Irregardless, from what I gather, regardless, the stadium will be built if they have a Washington baseball club or not. That is what I have been told.

Senator CARROLL. Would the building of that stadium not be very valuable to you with your franchise?

Mr. GRIFFITH. Well, we would hope so, providing that the lease that we could receive at the new studium would let us operate it. That is the reason why this matter was brought to a head, to my knowledge, that the Armory Board came out to the ball park and sat down with the board of directors, and informally discussed a proposal that they would give us to go into the new stadium, and when that proposal was given it was given to our controller and auditors, to analyze, and we found out from their conversation that our revenue would be $150,000 or more, less than we would take in at Griffith Stadium. That got us very much concerned at that time.

Senator CARROLL. Well, now, Mr. Griffith, I suppose the only reason that this might be pertinent to this inquiry at all is that I remember either the statement by Casey Stengel or reading in the paper that the removal of Brooklyn and the Giants from New York has hurt baseball, because when the Yanks are out playing on the road, I suppose baseball fans are subject to a habit pattern like any other group, and therefore, it becomes important as to how the clubs move around these franchises in geographic areas.

I do not know whether that is a proper subject for congressional inquiry or not, and it probably would not be except for this bill, and I do not even know, I don't profess to say, how pertinent it would be for this investigation. But I think the chairman's questions put here this morning are much to the point, and I think your explanations are very helpful. I thought we would get some of these facts in the record.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Mr. McHugh, do you care to ask any ques

Mr. McHUGH. Mr. Griffith, the newspapers quoted you as saying that one of the reasons for your desire to move the franchise out of Washington was because of some type of pressure that had been exerted upon you by the members of the American League realinement committee.

Is that correct?

Mr. GRIFFITH. No, sir; I just had the opportunity to talk to Mr. Atchison today, and I told him, I said "Tony, you misquoted me on that. You asked me who the members of the realinement committee were," and I told him the names of the men on the realinement committee and they have never pressured me at all. I just told Tony today that I was misquoted on that subject. There has never been any pressure brought upon the Washington baseball club by any member of the American League. But the thing is, being that you are in this business, when you get a team to come in here and play 11 games and they come out and take $9,000 out of your city, it is a concern of mine, because the Yankees and the Red Sox draw 50 percent or better of our attendance, and I would like to see us doing something here in Washington to try to get the other fans for Kansas City, Detroit, Chicago, and those clubs to come in here to our ballgames.

Mr. MCHUGH. Do I understand you to say then that you never told any newspaper writers that one of the reasons you were considering negotiating to transfer the franchise was because of complaints that were being given to you by other teams in the American League which comprised the realinement committee?

Mr. GRIFFITH. Never has one of them ever said a word to me concerning that. I told Tony Atchison that this morning to have it corrected.

Mr. McHUGH. I understand, Mr. Griffith, that in answer to Senator O'Mahoney's question you indicated you were misquoted with reference to the article that appeared after the board of directors meeting on January 31.

Now, with reference to the signed article that appeared in the Washington Post on the 15th of January in which you were quoted as saying that the Washington franchise will not "be shifted from this city in my lifetime." Were you misquoted in that article?

Mr. GRIFFITH. If I was quoted that way, I said it.

Mr. McHUGH. That is a correct statement then of your position at that time?

Mr. GRIFFITH. Yes, sir.

Mr. McHUGH. Mr. Griffith, I understand that the board of directors met shortly after the action that was taken by the American League in Baltimore and they proposed a resolution with reference to the Washington officials not negotiating for the transfer of the franchise. What date was that?

Mr. GRIFFITH. That meeting was set up on June 17, when we had our annual meeting of the board of directors.

We set the meeting up immediately after the all-star game for the board to get knowledge of what the American League members felt. It was already set up. Of course it was a special meeting because we have to have another meeting at the end of this month.