pated under normal conditions in a like period of time. Without the programs which I have outlined, school facilities construction would have been almost negligible during the period from 1933 to 1945.

Insofar as I know, there is no instance where any claim has been sustained that an attempt was made by the FWA to exert Federal control of local school operations. Under these programs over 17,000 permanent school buildings were constructed.

Charges have been made that educational facilities were constructed unwisely, that facilities in excess of actual requirements were provided, facilities were located in the wrong areas, or that facilities so constructed have defeated the best interest of a State educational program by retarding consolidation of school districts.

It would be unusual in a program of this magnitude if there were not a few errors of judgment, but due to the policy of the Federal Works Agency on all the programs mentioned and that was a policy which was an administrative policy of obtaining advice and recommendations not only from the representatives of the United States Office of Education but also from the various State departments of education-I am certain that the exceptional cases mentioned above have been kept to an absolute minimum.

If I could interpolate there, sir, the only reason I mentioned that was, as you will recall, it goes back to the WPA program, and for reasons which I am not sure were always meritorious, charges were made.

It should also be pointed out that in all cases, except for the construction of a few Federal projects under the war public works program, the location, the type, the size of the facilities provided were in conformity with the views of the local school district which is by law in every Štate in the Nation charged with the responsibility of furnishing public educational facilities. Wherever a State agency had authority to govern the construction of educational facilities by a local school district, it had equal authority over the construction, assisted by the Federal Government under these programs.

I have reviewed in detail a copy of the letter forwarded to Hon. Elbert D. Thomas, chairman of the full Committee on Education and Labor on May 26 by Mr. Frank Pace, the Director of the Bureau of the Budget. Mr. Pace forwarded a copy of that letter to the Federal Works Agency with a request that the recommendations therein conetained b considered in any expression of our views on the proposed legislation to the various committees of the House and the Senate.

All of our reports have been considered in the light of the Bureau of the Budget's position. As Mr. Larson has advised you, we are fully in accord with the view that Federal assistance for maintenance and operation of elementary and secondary schools is desirable, but we do not have available to us sufficient data to allow firm judgment on an over-all Federal-aid program for school construction.

At the request of the chairman of the subcommittee of the House Public Works Committee, the Bureau of Community Facilities of the Federal Works Agency, in cooperation with the United States Office of Education and the various State departments of education, last fall and winter conducted a survey to determine the need for Federal assistance in the construction of school facilities in those areas where Federal activity induced a large part of the existing problems.

Senator HILL. Of course, that would give you a very limited picture so far as the over-all United States is concerned.

Mr. ELLIOTT. That is correct, sir. Mr. Seward will describe to you in some detail the methods employed in that survey and the conclusion reached. Frankly it is possible that the $150,000,000 figure mentioned in most of the emergency-type construction bills may be too large, but it is our opinion that this is a matter for the Congress to determine, not for us to tell the Congress. It is for them to determine on the basis of not only what we have got but what a lot of other folks have got that they will present to you.

I would like to clarify one statement made by Mr. Pace, the Director of the Bureau of the Budget, in his letter to Senator Thomas where he states:

Furthermore, in presenting the results of the survey

that was the limited Federal Works Agency survey

no data were made available concerning the ability of the individual local school districts to finance new construction, on an emergency basis, to meet emergency conditions in the absence of Federal aid.

Mr. Pace's statement is entirely correct insofar as the summation of the results of the survey reported to the Senate and House Public Works Committee by the Bureau of Community Facilities is concerned. Those summations are supported, though, by detailed information submitted by each school district which reported showing the funds available. However, this information has not been independently checked by our own people.

Senator HILL. In other words, you have not yet checked, and perhaps there is good reason why you have not, to see just how accurate these reports are from the local school districts. Is that correct?

Mr. ELLIOTT. That is correct, sir.

Senator HILL. Just how much perhaps you might find that they can do that they have not yet done?

Mr. ELLIOTT. That is right. There are many cases where they have puffed up their needs and also put down their own finances. Senator HILL. Knowing human nature as we do, why naturally we are going to have the other fellow help us as much as we think we can. Mr. ELLIOTT. That is perfectly true.

Senator HILL. That is natural.

Mr. LARSON. In that connection, Senator, there arises in my mind. on the basis of the limited knowledge I have of this entire subject, that that might be one of the things we are speaking of that the Office of Education could perform better than we could perform, at least perform it in light of the background of educational responsibility. Senator HILL. I think that is quite true.

Mr. ELLIOTT. I might say we are in conformity with Mr. Pace's desire that realistic guide lines for the administration of any program approved by the Congress be provided, but, as Mr. Larson stated, any effort to standardize such guide lines must be approached with some degree of apprehension and a full realization of the fact that a different condition will prevail in practically every school district in the Nation in need of assistance, and that individual judgment must be exercised in each case.

I do not mean to suggest, sir, there, that you should open the door wide, but I do mean that it is difficult to apply a standard for every district. It has just got to be tight-fisted administration.

Senator HILL. Well, I will tell you this: I am a great believer in Federal aid. That is one thing I am sold on, but one thing I also deplore is a grab-bag proposition, and I am sure you gentlemen feel the same way.

Mr. ELLIOTT. That is correct, sir.

Senator HILL. There ought to be fair and reasonable yardsticks to measure these things, and where the Federal aid is justified they certainly ought to have it, but nothing is worse than this grab-bag business; is that not right?

Mr. ELLIOTT. That is very true.

Mr. LARSON. That is right. Human nature being what it is, Senator, we have to set up certain brakes on ourselves as human beings. Senator HILL. I am sure of that.

Mr. LARSON. And that applies to the local official as well as to the national official.

Senator HILL. That is right. You have many calls from Congressmen and Senators about these things, do you not, Mr. Larson? Mr. LARSON. That is right.

Senator HILL. You see what we are doing. We are relaying from down home. We get these calls from down home. We relay them to you; do you not see?

Mr. LARSON. That is right.

Mr. ELLIOTT. With reference to Mr. Pace's recommendation that "determination of the recipients of these funds should be placed in the Federal Security Agency in concert with responsible State educational authorities," I would like to point out that S. 834, which was introduced by Senator Magnuson for himself and a number of other Senators when modified by the second amendment to the bill, which he and the other sponsors proposed, would accomplish that result in part.

That amendment provides

no loan or grant shall be made hereunder unless the school facilities proposed to be provided therewith shall have been approved by such State educational authority as may have jurisdiction or control of such school facilities.

In addition the Commission may wish to consider a further amendment to that amendment which would provide for

approval by the Office of Education, Federal Security Agency, after consultation with the appropriate State educational authority.

That places upon them this functional determination for educational need.

Such an amendment then, I want to say, would place the language of that proposed bill in conformity with the past administrative practice of the Federal Works Agency in requesting determinations regarding educational matters from the recognized educational authorities. Senator HILL. It would fortify your position, though, to have it in the law, would it not?

Mr. ELLIOTT. Yes, sir. We would prefer to have it in the law so that the authority is clearly placed by the Congress on the respective agencies, and then there will be no confusion.

I took out of order the reference to the reports of this committee sir, before, and all I would like to say in conclusion is that the pressing need in the emergency situations-those are the situations where the overburdening has resulted from Federal activity-as outlined in Mr. Pace's letter, is for the construction of needed school facilities in the shortest possible time

It is our opinion that this need can best be met through utilization of that Federal channel, the Federal Works Agency, through which similar assistance has been given in the past where personnel familiar with the needs of the local school district is now available. It is demonstrated that favorable results can quickly be accomplished through FWA channels.

I hope you will pardon that puff for the Agency in the end, sir, but again I am talking in the light of a construction agency.

Senator HILL. As you say, practically all of these districts where this emergency still exists, you already have some knowledge at least of those districts. Many of them you have already had some project involved, is that not true?

Mr. ELLIOTT. That is correct, sir, we do, but we also think that before any aid is given to any school district that data should be reexamined and scrutinized and determined by educational people.

Senator HILL. I understand. Well, I think you are wise in that for many reasons, many reasons. You see you sometimes have post mortems, do you not?

Mr. ELLIOTT. That is quite true.

Senator HILL. It is sound as a matter of principle. These people who have the technical staff for that kind of work and who are in that business are the ones who should be concerned.

Mr. ELLIOTT. That is right.

Senator HILL. You might be building a school building today, but maybe tomorrow you are building a post-office building. You do not profess to be experts in the matter of educational policies. That is for the educators to pass on, is that not right?

Mr. ELLIOTT. That is correct, sir. We know how to put the bricks together and the nails, but it is for them to determine where a school building should be located in terms of the neighborhood and school busses, and it is for them to determine how much school facilities and what kind are needed.

Senator HILL. That is a job certainly for them. You are certainly right.

All right, you may proceed now, Mr. Seward.

92679-49- -14

STATEMENT OF PERE F. SEWARD, COMMISSIONER OF COMMUNITY FACILITIES, FEDERAL WORKS AGENCY, ACCOMPANIED BY B. A. LILLYWHITE, SCHOOL ANALYST

Mr. SEWARD. Senator, I have a prepared statement which I would like inserted, if you will, please, in the record.

Senator HILL. It will go in in full at this point.

(Mr. Seward submitted the following statement:)

STATEMENT OF PERE F. SEWARD, COMMISSIONER OF COMMUNITY FACILITIES, FEDERAL WORKS AGENCY ON VARIOUS BILLS TO PROVIDE FEDERAL ASSISTANCE FOR CONSTRUCTION OF PUBLIC ELEMENTARY AND SECONDARY SCHOOL PLANT FACIITIES

INTRODUCTION

On May 26, 1949, the chairman of the Labor and Public Welfare Committee addressed a letter to the Federal Works Administrator requesting that he or his representative present his views regarding the various bills now pending before this committee to authorize Federal assistance for construction of school-plant facilities. We have studied these various proposals as well as the need for such action and, in accordance with the request of the chairman, are presenting our opinion of these various measures. The statement first briefly summarizes the recommendations of the Federal Works Agency and then presents in greater detail information supporting these recommendations.

SUMMARY OF RECOMMENDATIONS

The volume of data currently available shows that there exists a critical shortage of public elementary and secondary school facilities throughout the Nation and that this shortage is seriously affecting our public-school programs. The shortage results from the protracted period of underbuilding during the depression, war, and postwar periods, and the greatly increased birth rate during and since the war. Current data place the cost of urgently needed school facilities during the next 10 years at 8 to 10 billion dollars and most State and local governments report that they are financially unable to meet this need without Federal assistance. The Federal Government has a direct concern in the education of its citizens and we believe that it is entirely proper for the Federal Government to provide assistance to State and local school agencies to help meet this critical need.

Although the need for additional school-plant facilities is general throughout the country, there are a small number of areas where the problem is particularly critical. Activities of Federal departments undertaken during and since the war, such as national-defense installations, flood-control and reclamation projects, and similar Federal activities have caused a large influx of additional population into the areas surrounding these projects. School districts in these adjacent areas not only have experienced the normal increase in school population, common to most of the Nation, but in addition they have experienced a further heavy expansion in school enrollment as the result of these Federal activities.

At the request of the House Public Works Committee, the Bureau of Community Facilities of the Federal Works Agency recently completed a study of the situation in these Federally affected areas. This study showed that there exists a serious emergency need for additional school-plant facilities in a relatively small number of areas which cannot be met by the local school agencies. We believe that since the problem in these areas has been caused in a large measure by Federal activities, the Federal Government has a definite responsibility to assist in providing the urgently needed facilities.

We have been informed by the Bureau of the Budget that the President's program does not include a general school construction program at this session of Congress because sufficient information is not now available to arrive at a balanced judgment of the extent of the need, the ability of State and local governments to meet that need, and the scope of needed Federal assistance. The communication from the Bureau of the Budget further stated that this reasoning did not rule out a limited program of Federal assistance for construction of school facilities in those areas where an emergency need for such facilities had been created by activities of the Federal Government. That communication stated in part, "There may well be certain situations in which the school building