Mr. SEWARD. Senator, the reason that it happened under the Lanham Act program was the fact that here was a condition which existed. There was a war on. There was a war which had to be won. We did not have time to enter into long-drawn-out negotiations as to how this thing might be done. We had to provide the facility first and then clean up afterward.

Mr. ELLIOTT. I think here, sir, if I might interpolate, I wish to say that it ought to be a last resort and limited to those cases where, after all efforts, the local school district in most cases probably, by reason of a debt limitation, cannot raise its own 50 percent at this time because they are up to their debt limit.

Senator HILL. You might have some constitutional prohibition so that they simply could not act at this time, but I certainly do not favor that procedure unless there is such a compelling situation that you just have to resort to it.

Mr. SEWARD. The reason that I brought it up, Senator, is because I do think that situation will exist.

Senator HILL. I am glad you brought it out.

Mr. SEWARD. It may have to be met in some way or other. sir, I think that concludes my comments for the moment, Senator. Senator HILL. Let me ask you gentlemen this question. It has been reported in the press that you all have prepared a catalog or list of future public-works projects, having in mind that if you should have to undertake at any time a public-works program, that this list will be ready.

Mr. LARSON. I am not familiar with the press statement about which you are speaking.

Senator HILL. You have seen some statements to that effect in the press, have you not?

Mr. LARSON. Yes. There has been continued planning ever since the end of the war, but in the very nebulous stages of planning such as committees from industry and interested groups meeting and discussing ways and means of approaching this problem. There is serious planning going on at the present time both on the part of the Federal Works Agency and the Bureau of the Budget. That planning has progressed further in the highway field than in any other field. Senator Hill. Well, what I was going to ask next was how far have you gone in this school field?

Mr. SEWARD. I think what the Senator is referring to is the projects that have been planned by the State and local public bodies under the authority contained under title V of the old War Mobilization and Reconversion Act under which the Federal Works Agency and our Bureau had an appropriation of $65,000,000 to advance to State and local public bodies.

Senator HILL. For this planning?

Mr. SEWARD. To plan in detail their public works and put those plans on a shelf for use in the event that it became necessary to put people to work quickly in connection with a rehabilitation program. Those projects have been in the main all planned. Among those were 2,040 school projects.

Senator Hill. Well, now these 2,040, would they pretty well include these projects?

Mr. SEWARD. No, sir.

Senator HILL. Not in these critical areas?

Mr. SEWARD. Not in general the ones in the emergency areas. Senator HILL. Not in general. Is that due to the fact that this planning was largely the responsibility and the work of the local districts?

Mr. SEWARD. It was entirely the work of the local districts.

Senator HILL. I see, and therefore they did not go into these projects?

Mr. SEWARD. That is right, Senator.

Senator HILL. Let me ask you this question now. If we should report out one of these bills and pass it, and Congress should appropriate for it, and the amount was within reasonable conformity to the $150,000,000, say $100,000,000, would we get to the end of this thing? Would there be an end to these emergency situations?

Mr. SEWARD. There would be an end, Senator Hill, to the emergency situations as they exist today. Now what the future might hold, I just cannot say.

Senator HILL. You see, a patient gets in a critical condition. He either dies or he gets well, or he gets into a chronic condition. You do now know what is going to happen here.

Mr. ELLIOTT. I think it would end the emergency situation in these particular localities, but whether there would be other emergencies in other localities

Senator HILL. Well, what I am thinking is, would there or could there be other emergencies in other localities due to war Federal activity? Do you see what I mean?

We are going to have emergencies, living in this age of science that we are living in today, and moving as rapidly as we do. We are going to have plenty of emergencies in the future, just as we have had in recent years. What I am thinking of particularly is these emergency areas now that became critical on account of this war's activity on the part of the Federal Government. Would this put an end to this critical situation?

Mr. SEWARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. ELLIOTT. Yes, sir; it would, because there is a need for school plants, and then that need will be satisfied. It is not a need for continual maintenance and operation, which is an entirely different problem.

Mr. SEWARD. For instance, Senator, one of the very critical projects in this is this White Sands, N. Mex., project, the development of rockets. That, of course, is something that has just come about in the last couple of years. Now there may be additional things like that which come up, sir.

Senator HILL. I was thinking in terms of these situations that grew out of the war, and Federal activities.

Mr. SEWARD. This should take care of that, sir.

Senator HILL. This should end that?

Mr. SEWARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LARSON. I hope my associates are right, Senator.

Mr. SEWARD. I said from the standpoint of the schools.

Senator HILL. In other words, you are not quite as optimistic as they are, Mr. Larson?

Mr. LARSON. It is dangerous to speak without information, and I do not have the information necessary to speak here, but I cannot help but view this situation in light of the increasing demand on the

part of the communities in this country to have the Federal Government participate in all sorts of public works, and that is increasing tremendously.

It is in my mail every day in the form of groups and bodies meeting, and I am sure Congress is feeling it to a greater extent than am I, and it is going to be difficult to discern between an emergency situation which was created as a result of war activities, and that which was created as a result of unemployment in a locality or from some other cause, such as you have indicated, living in the age that

we are.

My personal feeling at this time is that this program must be coordinated with the obligation on the part of the Federal Government to alleviate any emergency situation that might arise, and that looks toward coordinating this with that legislation which is pending before the Congress for the continuation of this stock piling of blueprints for public-works projects.

Visualizing my responsibility as a possible coordinator in the Federal Government of those construction activities, I think we have reached the stage where we have got to consider this in the light of a national emergency situation perhaps, rather than a local emergency situation. However, I am not advocating that it is not the responsibility of the Federal Government to carry on, and as nearly as we can alleviate those emergency situations which we, the Federal Government, created as a result of the prosecution of the war.

Mr. ELLIOTT. In defense of Mr. Seward and myself, all we intended was that this would cure these emergencies in these places, not other emergencies in other places.

Mr. SEWARD. That is correct, sir. As I say, this would take care of the school situation.

Senator HILL. Well, now when you say "take care of the school situation," you said a little while ago "the school construction situation."

Mr. SEWARD. Yes, sir; that is what I am talking about, school construction.

Mr. LARSON. That is right.

Senator HILL. Well, you gentlemen have been most helpful, and I want to thank you very much.

Our next witness is Dr. McClure, executive secretary of the American Association of School Administrators. Doctor, we are glad to have you here, sir.

STATEMENT OF DR. WORTH MCCLURE, EXECUTIVE SECRETARY OF THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS

Dr. MCCLURE. Mr. Chairman, I am Worth McClure, executive secretary of the American Association of School Administrators, which is a national organization of State, county, and city superintendents of schools.

Senator HILL. It is what they used to call the old department of superintendents.

Dr. MCCLURE. Yes, sir; superintendents numbering about 15,000. I am also here, as his request, to represent Dr. Willard E. Givens, secretary of the National Education Association, which, through its State branches, represents about 900,000 teachers.

Dr. Givens desires me to say, as I think you know, Senator, that the National Education Association is pledged to the general aid bill as first priority, but he is also anxious to be recorded in favor of the statement which I expect to make.

The National Education Association, in fact, is on record through its platform in favor of the policies which are set forth in this statement. I have been tremendously interested in the presentation of these facts by the Federal Works Agency staff. There is no doubt that conditions which they represent are present.

I, myself was a superintendent of schools for 16 years, part of it in the State of Missouri, and 14 years, in Seattle, Wash. We were a war industry area out there. I met with superintendents of schools in small and large groups all over the country, perhaps one-third of my time, and I am more or less familiar with their troubles. The picture which has been presented by the Federal Works Agency is a true picture, but it is by no means the whole picture.

Senator HILL. In fact, it is a small part. As acute as it may be, as critical as it may, be it is small part.

Dr. MCCLURE. Yes. As Dr. Austin E. Meadows said yesterday in his testimony, there are counties in Alabama-I think he mentioned Lowndes County and one or two others I have seen his testimony; I was not here where the emergency is fully as acute as those which were stated this morning.

Dr. Edgar Fuller placed in the record yesterday, I believe, a statement covering several thousand school districts in 23 different States where the emergency is acute as far as school housing is concerned, so that what we have had here this morning is only a small part.

I am glad to have an opportunity to present the views of the superintendents of schools upon matters of policy as represented by the various bills now before the subcommittee, that through the statements made this morning and those of Dr. Fuller and others, the factual side has been pretty well covered and that the need for school housing is apparent to every intelligent citizen who studies it. In fact, there is scarcely a community in the United States which is not suffering from the fact that no school buildings were erected during the depression nor during the war years and that costs of school building construction since the shooting stopped have been two or three times those of prewar days.

Senator HILL. Excuse me. In that connection, as you travel over the country do you find this cost has gone down any, or is it still just about at the peak?

Dr. MCCLURE. It is leveling off, and in some parts of the country it has receded perhaps 10 percent. Apparently there has been no reduction, very little in the cost of materials. Wages, of course, have not been reduced.

The contractors feel a little more certain of the picture than they did, and they do not add as much of a cushion for emergencies as they did previously. That is the explanation which I have had from two or three parts of the country.

Many school districts are unable to do construction upon their own because the statutory limitations of bonded indebtedness were enacted by State legislatures during the days when building costs were only a fraction of what they are today. Ample statistical evidence of the need for school buildings has been presented to this committee.

Even if there were no such evidence available, one has only to visit the schools of this Nation and see for himself the many thousands of children who are attending on a half-day basis or who are housed in unsanitary, firetrap buildings or who attend crowded classes because the number of classrooms available is not sufficient.

I visited one school in Arkansas where there were 70 children in the first grade because they did not have rooms and did not have the money to build additional rooms.

Senator HILL. Did you ever examine some of these schools in the District of Columbia?

Dr. MCCLURE. Yes, and they are a disgrace.

Senator HILL. That is right.

Dr. MCCLURE. There are some excellent schools, but some are a disgrace to the National Capital.

I take it there is very little need for further evidence as to the inadequacies of present school housing in this country, and I shall therefore address myself to a fundamental question of policy. If Federal aid for schoolhouse construction is provided, its distribution must not be entrusted to agencies which, however competent they may be in engineering, know nothing about educational programs. Let me state the proposition affirmatively.

When Federal funds are provided for aid in schoolhouse construction, they should be channeled through the United States Office of Education, and the various State departments of education, unless the education of millions of boys and girls is to be strait-jacketed for the next 50 years. The planning of a school building is an educational matter, not merely a matter of architecture and engineering. A school building is an architectural interpretation of an educational program. If well designed educationally, it will not only increase the efficiency of the educational program which it was planned to fit, but it will be adaptable enough to meet new trends in education which may appear during the next 50 years, and we are agreed that at least 50 years is the life of a school building today.

I have heard that statement challenged. I myself in my early days as superintendent used to advocate the erection of buildings which could be written off at the end of 25 years, but here is what happens. Seattle is an example.

During World War I there were temporary wooden buildings erected to be used for the period of the emergency, and those buildings are still in use 30 years later in that city. That has happened in hundreds of cities all over the country. Seattle is no exception.

If, on the other hand, the building is designed as school buildings were a generation or so ago, merely on the basis of good engineering, we may find that good teaching is hamstrung from the beginning and, most tragic of all, that the taxpayers' money has been invested in a structure which will be a handicap to good teaching as long as it stands.

Why should the State department of education be involved in the distribution of Federal aid for schoolhouse construction? For the vital reason that the intelligent planning of education on a State-wide basis cannot be conducted if a Federal agency undertakes to deal separately with every single school district which may require assistance. There is now in progress in a number of States a movement toward the reorganization of school districts through which several