that the Federal Government should say, "Well, we will help you," and the local people, chamber of commerce and all, should say; "Well, we accept the help of the Federal Government." I believe that the education of the grammar-school children-by the way, if I did not say it before, our school is a grammar school. It goes from the first grade to the eighth grade. The education of the little children is the basis for higher education as they grow up, and it is my belief that the Federal Government has done a good job in higher education, college education, granting scholarships, and the GI assistance, and all that, and it is a very good job, but when it comes to grammar schools they have disregarded it absolutely.

Senator MORSE. Well, I understand that point of view, but I am sure it would not satisfy the opponents of our legislation, because they argue, further, that these tax limitations of 6 percent, which are so common in so many States, are too low, and that, furthermore, State legislatures have not adopted legislation which would permit the diverting of a portion of the income tax, for example, directly into school support.

Mr. ORI. You mean the State income tax?

Senator MORSE. State income tax.

Mr. ORI. Well, in our particular case we could not do that because Illinois does not have an income tax yet.

Senator MORSE. Well, in those States that do have an income tax the argument goes that there ought to be some definite share of it go into the school system, and that those States that do not have ityou have a sales tax, do you not?

Mr. ORI. Yes; we do have.

Senator MORSE. They argue that in those States there ought to be some definite proportion of the income from the sales tax earmarked for educational purposes.

Mr. ORI. But here, again, you run up against the Federal Government exempting the sales on the post, and they have PX's. They exempt the sales on the post from sales tax.

Senator MORSE. Well, they may there, which is bad Federal policy, but I am thinking, of course, about the over-all State obligation to see to it that adequate State funds are appropriated where the State has the ability to pay for educational facilities prior to calling upon the Federal Government. I am just setting out what their argument is. I do not share their conclusion that it ought to all be borne by either the municipality or by the State, but you pass legislation in the Senate of the United States by one vote more than half of those present and voting, and you have the arguments ready to meet the contentions against you.

Mr. ORI. My only good argument or the best argument I would have in that case would be that we should not quibble-you should have foreseen the problem or you should not have foreseen the problem-but they should look at the factual situation and see that there are children to be educated, which is a national duty, and it is for the national benefit, and that we should do something about that particular problem which exists. I would go back and say, "Why did you bring the Federal activities in this district?" That would not solve the problem.

Senator MORSE. Is not the essence of your argument this: That the Federal Government in turn knew full well that when it located

the Federal project it was going to create an educational problem and that to the extent that it must bear its share of that responsibility it ought to take the steps necessary to see to it that the youngsters are not the sufferers of any jurisdictional conflict between segments of the government, local and Federal, as to who has the greatest obligation to pay the bill?

Mr. ÓRI. That is right.

Senator MORSE. And that we are confronted here with the fact that thousands upon thousands of American boys and girls today are being denied equality of educational opportunity because there is a certain amount of refusal on the part of various government agencies to assume the responsibility that must be assumed if you are going to give those children that equality of educational opportunity? Mr. ORI. That is correct.

I wish to make a final statement: That I believe that the education of our children is a national problem rather than a local one, and you can equalize the education of them only by having the Federal Government interested in education and sharing the expenses of it.

Senator MORSE. Do you mean to say, Mr. Orí, that the education of our children is a national responsibility, or do you mean that there is a joint obligation between the municipality, State and Federal Government to take the steps necessary to provide this equality of educational opportunity?

Mr. ORI. When I say "national" I mean from the Federal Government down to the school district. In other words, we should not exclude the Federal Government in the education of the children. The Federal Government should take its responsibility.

Senator MORSE. Not completely?

Mr. ORI. That is right.

Senator MORSE. But it is not your argument, is it, that you think the full cost of educating the children should be borne by the Federal Government?

Mr. ORI. No. But they should fulfill their responsibility also like the State government and the local government.

Senator MORSE. Speaking hypothetically, as we look at the country from coast to coast, from north to south, we see a lot of valleys and lot of mountain peaks as far as educational opportunities are concerned.

Mr. ORI. That is right.

Senator MORSE. And your position is there ought to be a leveling

Mr. ORI. Equalizing.

Senator MORSE. As far as school support is concerned to that degree necessary to guarantee to each child what we consider to be those minimum standards of education that a child must have in order to become a responsible citizen under our form of Government. Mr. ORI. That is correct.

Senator MORSE. And that in too many spots in the country, because there is not Federal aid, we find educational standards so low that all of the people suffer because of the fact that too many of our youngsters are being brought up to a degree of lack of enlightenment that is not good for the country?

Mr. ORI. That is right.

Senator MORSE. Thank you very much.

Mr. Katzenmaier, superintendent of North Chicago, Ill., schools.

STATEMENT OF A. J. KATZENMAIER, SUPERINTENDENT OF SCHOOLS, NORTH CHICAGO, ILL.

Mr. KATZENMAIER. I have a brief statement, Mr. Chairman. My name is A. J. Katzenmaier. I am superintendent of schools at North Chicago, Ill.

North Chicago is a community of about 9,000 people, 30 miles directly north of the city of Chicago.

School District No. 64, Lake County, North Chicago, Ill., is comprised of seven sections, over one-half being occupied by the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, the Veterans' Administration facilities, and the Federal-State housing project. The Federal Government made the first acquisition of land in 1905, the second in 1917, and the third in 1941. These acquisitions have used up the greater industrial area of the school district and have left only the residential sections for school-tax purposes. The school district has been saddled with many children and few tax resources. In view of these facts, the local residents have had their property tax bills increased to the point where it is unprofitable to build or own property.

The school district now has a student enrollment of approximately 1,100 children, 200 of these from the training center, 150 from the housing project, and 25 from the Veterans' Administration, a total of 375, or 35 percent of the total enrollment. That percentage of enrollment, of course, is just for the people residing on Federal property We have a good many other youngsters, from 200 to 250, that are there because their parents are civilian employees.

At the present time the naval authorities are making arrangements for conversion of barracks into 250 more apartments and a trailer camp of 150 trailers. The housing authorities are waiting to let contract for 200 more apartments, and the Veterans' Administration is already building more buildings, and they are adding to their staff daily.

Not only has the school district lost tax revenue from this area during the last 25 years, but more and more of the student body is coming from the residences on federally owned land.

During the last 5 years the board of education has spent in excess of $300,000 in adding to its buildings, and at the present time is using basement rooms and temporary buildings to house the boys and girls. A survey of the enrollment for the next five years indicates a minimum need for 10 more classrooms each of the coming 5 years. Every bit of available space is now occupied, and the only alternative that the board of education has open is to build new buildings, but under the present Illinois law it would be impossible to bond to that extent. Therefore, unless the Federal Government assumes its moral obligation to provide housing to educate these boys and girls, it will be necessary to have school half time. It is a great injustice to the boys and girls of the local residents as well as to the boys and girls of the Navy personnel, first, because the local residents had no voice regarding the acquisition of this land and, secondly, the Navy personnel have had no choice in regard to their assignment.

This entire problem has been a great concern to the local people for many years, and during the war emergency they made the best of a serious situation. Now it has reached such proportions that the local people are no longer able or willing to assume the responsibility that

the Federal Government has put upon them. Federal aid would help to provide relief to the local taxpayers and assure these boys and girls of the inherent right to a full education.

Senator MORSE. Thank you very much. That is a very helpful

statement.

Mr. KATZENMAIER. Thank you.

Senator MORSE. Are there any further witnesses? Is there anyone else in the room who wishes to make a statement?

Mr. Rose. Senator MORSE. We have another man from Washington whom I did not have when I submitted the list. Senator MORSE. I will be glad to hear him.

STATEMENT OF HERMAN F. JAEGER, SUPERINTENDENT OF SCHOOLS, GRAND COULEE, WASH.

Senator MORSE. Give your name to the reporter, please.

Mr. JAEGER. Mr. Chairman, I am Herman F. Jaeger. I am superintendent of schools at Grand Coulee, Wash.

Senator MORSE. We will be glad to have your statement, Mr. Jaeger.

Mr. JAEGER. Our statement has been prepared for Senator Magnuson, Senator Cain, and Representative Holmes, and I did not know the hearing was on when I came in this morning, but the difficulty we have had at Grand Coulee, our town, is the private town at Grand Coulee Dam. When Grand Coulee Dam was started in 1933 the towns of Grand Coulee, Electric City, and Osborne sprung up and with it our school district. Our area that is in Grand Coulee School District covers the towns of Osborne, Electric City, and Grand Coulee and most of the rural area between Grand Coulee Dam and the site of Chief Joseph Dam, yet the Grand Coulee School District has not been able to get Federal help because it is private property and the valuation, if you include the Federal property, is over a hundred million dollars.

Mr. Darling, the local engineer, has estimated that over half of the money spent on the atomic project-that valuation is in our school district.

Now, there is another school district across the river, the east side of the Grand Coulee Dam, known as the Coulee Dam School District. There, because it is on Federal property, the Government has built the buildings and maintained those buildings, and on the other side of the river where the private town is located the Federal Government has not given any aid, and we feel that Grand Coulee--the Congress has never quite understood that there were two school districts at the dam, and for Coulee Dam now the USBR has $325,000 to build additional buildings in the Coulee Dam School District, but the argument that is given to our district is that we are on private property and, therefore, Federal buildings cannot be built.

We feel that a bill like the one that is being considered today will give aid to a district like Grand Coulee.

Senator MORSE. Will you make a statement for the record as to the children you serve, where they come from, and what their parents do? Mr. JAEGER. Well, all of our children are either directly or indirectly the result of the activity of the Federal Government. There just was not a town or a school district in that area until the dam was started.

Senator MORSE. Their parents for the most part are Federal employees?

Mr. JAEGER. Federal and contractor employees. The local district. has made quite an effort to build the buildings. They are very temporary. I have complete sets of pictures along that I presented to the two Senators, and to our Representatives, showing the temporary nature of those buildings, and yet the community is going into a permanent community. The valuation is only $857,000, and the district across the river is around $200,000. Neither one is a large enough base to build a school building. We have made an attempt. We have had three 20-mill extra levies in the last 3 years, and we voted a 5-percent limit on the bonds, but there just has not been enough to start a good building program.

Senator MORSE. What has been the result of the emergency conditions under which you have had to operate with respect to the standards of education that you have been able to give these youngsters compared with the standard of education that they would get, for example, at Spokane?

Mr. JAEGER. We do receive a large number of transfer studentsthis may not be in our favor-but we find that we are able to keep up the standard, even in the poor buildings that we do have, and that is based on national tests, so that may not be a supporting argument.

Senator MORSE. What about the congested condition of your schools?

Mr. JAEGER. The temporary buildings are crowded. That is, we have all the way from 35 to 50 children per classroom, so it is the nature of the building. We cannot argue that we are crowded. It is just the hazardous condition of our buildings. They are wood buildings that were built to last 2 or 3 years, and they have been there now 15 years.

Senator MORSE. Do you think improved physical facilities would have a direct effect on the quality of educational standards that could be maintained in the school?

Mr. JAEGER. I think we can do better work for the students and we can attract better teachers to our system.

Senator MORSE. You say that you have from 40 to 50 children in a classroom. Do you think that is above the desirable level for classroom occupancy?

Mr. JAEGER. I definitely feel it is. I think when you get over 30 to a room you more or less waste time rather than teach the children. That is my experience.

Senator MORSE. Do you think it can be expected that if you are required to continue for long trying to do your job under the type of facilities you have and the type of conditions that requires the teacher to handle 40 or 50 persons in a classroom, that you can continue to maintain the standards which you say you have been able to maintain today?

Mr. JAEGER. I do not think we can. That is the reason we are arguing today. I do not think we can keep attracting teachers to come into a system like that.

Senator MORSE. Well, that is my next and last question. What has been the effect of the emergency conditions under which you have had to operate upon teacher morale and your ability to induce teachers to come into your system?