the Negroes and tried to organize the Negroes to push was a part of this overall program of preparing the revolution.

Mr. DOYLE. So I will understand your answer, part of this program was the eventual use of force and violence by the American Negro in a civil war, if that time arrives?

Mr. ROSSER. Yes; part of the program was-if the opportunity. through fighting the landlords, for the right to sit on juries, for the right of the land, created itself—was to smash the plantation ownership. The only way you can smash it-Lenin said you had to use arms. You can't smash it with your hands. It is a question of force and violence.

Mr. DOYLE. All right; thank you.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Rosser, were you acquainted with Manning Johnson?

Mr. ROSSER. Yes, I knew Manning Johnson. He was a member of the national committee of the Communist Party, a Negro, who quit the Communist Party, I think, in the early forties.

Mr. TAVENNER. Manning Johnson testified on this same subject and in much the same way that you have when he appeared before this committee in 1949, and during the course of the testimony there was introduced in evidence through him as Exhibit No. 15 a map of the United States which had delineated on it those areas which were denominated the Black Belt and which was to constitute the new nation.

Will you examine this map, which appears as the frontispiece of the committee release, and state whether you observed it and were familiar with it and whether it was used in the teaching of Communist Party members by the leaders of the Communist Party? Mr. ROSSER. Yes, that's it.

Mr. TAVENNER. What is that?

Mr. ROSSER. That's it, the Black Belt. The Communist Party theory was that the Negroes were in majority down through Maryland, Mississippi, South Carolina, and the Cotton Belt where the majority of the cotton was raised, that they were in majority, that they were a nation based on the teachings of Stalin, that they had one culture, that their main occupation was farming, and they had one language, the American language, and so forth, and therefore they were a nation, and this Black Belt was where the party said that once the Negroes were successful, they had a right to set up the Negro Soviet republic.

Mr. SCHERER. In advocating that, the Communist Party functionaries in this country overlooked one thing, did they not, namely, that the Negroes were opposed to segregation, and this plan called for segregation. Wasn't that their big mistake?

Mr. ROSSER. That was the mistake, and Browder later on stated to the national committee of the Communist Party that the Negroes were for integration, and that they had made a mistake along this line, but they threw Browder out for that and a lot of other things of watered-down Marxism.

Mr. TAVENNER. You referred to this trip to the Soviet Union for the purpose of filming a picture, and you mentioned the name of Matt Crawford. What was Crawford's first name?

Mr. ROSSER. Matt Crawford, that is all I have ever known.

Mr. TAVENNER. Will you look at the article and see whether or not his first name appeared in it? That is exhibit No. 4.

Mr. ROSSER. Matthew Crawford.

Mr. TAVENNER. You have mentioned the Negro question in connection with your schooling, both on the local level, the county level, the State level, and presently I am going to ask you whether you came in touch with it on a national level.

Mr. ROSSER. I did.

Mr. TAVENNER. But for the present we were discussing your training in the State Communist school. Where was that school conducted? Mr. ROSSER. It was conducted here in San Francisco.

Mr. TAVENNER. You named several of those who taught. Have you named all that you can recall who taught?

Mr. ROSSER. At the present time I can't.

Mr. TAVENNER. Can you recall at this time the names of others who took the course with you?

Mr. ROSSER. Not at the present.

Mr. TAVENNER. You mentioned in connection with that course Peters' Manual. Who was this man Peters?

Mr. ROSSER. Well, Peters was a top trained Communist, trained in the Soviet Union.

Mr. TAVENNER. Was he known as J. Peters?

Mr. ROSSER. Yes, J. Peters.

Mr. TAVENNER. Was he also known as Alexander Stevens?

Mr. ROSSER. Yes, Alexander Stevens. He worked through the national committee. He had many jobs, and this Peters' Manual is the Communist International speaking to the American people, and J. Peters prepared it for the Communist Party here in America.

Mr. TAVENNER. Then it may be said that this was a directive from the Communist Party in a foreign country to the Communist Party in the United States through J. Peters?

Mr. ROSSER. That is right.

Mr. TAVENNER. To what extent was this manual used in your teaching and training?

Mr. ROSSER. Well, it was used, first of all-it gave us the basic aim of the Communist Party in America and the world, and the major aim of the Communist Party of the world is to overthrow capitalism and set up a world socialist state in America. That is the same thing.

It gave us the basic methods on how the Communist Party should work, that the basic industries should be the concentration point of the Communist Party here in America: steel, auto, longshore, marine, communications, transportation, like railroads-they should be the concentration point of the Communist Party; and then in Peters' Manual we were taught how to build cells and fractions within these groups, and then in there we dealt with the international solidarity of the Communist Parties throughout the world and the Negro question, the small farmers, they called these the allies of the working class and so forth.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Rosser, did this school have a name?

Mr. ROSSER. It was the State School of the Communist Party.

Mr. VELDE. What was the location, physical location?

Mr. ROSSER. San Francisco.

Mr. VELDE. Do you remember the street address or approximately where it was?

Mr. ROSSER. I think it was at the Finnish Hall. They have a Finnish lodge or something here. I think that is what it was. Mr. DOYLE. Mr. Chairman, may I ask this question?

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DOYLE. I notice, Mr. Rosser, you said that the basic industries of the United States were the concentration points of the Communist Party in this manual, Peters' Manual. Why would the Communist Party center on steel and transportation, on the basic industries of the United States? What would be their interest in centering on those?

Mr. ROSSER. Because the Communist Party follows the teachings of Lenin and Marx and Stalin, and the teachings of Lenin and Marx and Stalin, through experiences that they have had, teach them that the working class, the workers from basic industries, are the backbone of building the revolution, that they are the only class that can and will carry out a successful revolution.

Mr. SCHERER. The primary purpose being to eventually control those basic industries?

Mr. ROSSER. That is right.

Mr. SCHERER. By the Communist conspiracy?

Mr. ROSSER. That is right.

Mr. DOYLE. May I interject this question then: Control for what purpose? Why would the Soviet Union want to control the basic American industries?

Mr. ROSSER. Well, I think I said in the beginning that the defense of the Soviet Union was the key tactic or strategy of the Communist Parties of the world and the Communist Party of America in building the revolution because they realize that if the Soviet Union was destroyed, communism would be put back thousands of years or hundreds of years, and therefore in control of the basic industries, in case of a war. In case of a war with the Soviet Union it is possible for the party, through its teachings and understanding and strategy, to shut down these industries, sabotage.

Mr. DOYLE. In other words, is it my understanding-do I understand you to testify that the purpose of the Soviet Union Communist Party in the United States is to control our basic industries so that if there should be a war between the United States and the Soviet Union, the basic industries would be directed to protect the Soviet Union instead of the United States?

Mr. ROSSER. Not only a war between the Soviet Union and the United States, but if like Hitler went to war against the Soviet Union or if England or France would go to war against the Soviet Union, it is a question of weakening this country so through control, through having Communist groups in control of the unions that operate within these industries, so that we could not send aid to those countries, and if it was ourselves at war, it would be the strategy to sabotage them, and so forth.

Mr. SCHERER. To sabotage those industries?

Mr. ROSSER. That is right.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Rosser, you have mentioned the role and aim of the Communist Party in such a manner that I think to read from Peters' Manual would be a repetition of a lot that you have said, so I

shall not do that other than to refer to two short passages which I think, Mr. Chairman, should be read into the record.

I quote from Peters' Manual as follows:

As the leader and organizer of the proletariat, the Communist Party of the United States of America leads the working class in the fight for the revolutionary overthrow of capitalism, for the establishment of the dictatorship of the proletariat, for the establishment of a Socialist Soviet Republic in the United States, for the complete abolition of classes, for the establishment of socialism, the first stage of the classless Communist society.

Then I will read just one sentence from a pledge, which, according to a note in the manual, was given by Browder to 2,000 workers in New York. The sentence is as follows:

I pledge myself to rally the masses to defend the Soviet Union, the land of victorious socialism.

Those were things which I think you have pointed out in your testimony and which is corroborated by the very language of Peters' Manual.

I want to ask you one further question relating to Peters' Manual. We hear so frequently from witnesses appearing before this committee who have not given up their support of communism that it is a democratic form of government; they speak of the democratic processes, the so-called democratic processes of communism. Now, I want to read one short paragraph on that subject in which J. Peters states as follows:

We cannot imagine a discussion, for example, questioning the correctness of the leading role of the proletariat in the revolution, or the necessity for the proletarian dictatorship. We do not question the theory of the necessity for the forceful overthrow of capitalism. We do not question the correctness of the revolutionary theory of the class struggle laid down by Marx, Engels, Lenin, and Stalin. We do not question the counterrevolutionary nature of Trotskyism.

In other words, they were not permitted to question in the Communist Party, if you read literally the language of J. Peters; isn't that correct?

Mr. ROSSER. That is correct.

Mr. TAVENNER. Was that true in practice?

Mr. ROSSER. That is true in practice.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Chairman, I think this is a convenient place for

a recess.

Mr. SCHERER. Let me ask one more question on this subject before

we recess.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Scherer.

Mr. SCHERER. Isn't it a fact that during the time you were in the party and taking these various courses that the party functionaries taught or actually taught the mechanics of sabotage for the basic industries?

Mr. ROSSER. Well, the fact is that at the national training school of the Communist Party held in New York, where I spent the 6 months, the basic book used by the national committee of the Communist Party that organized that school was the History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union. In welcoming us to the school, Pop Mindel and George Siskin, two old-time charter member Communists, both trained in Russia, stated that in study of the History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union that we would understand the importance of

Marxism-Leninism; that we would understand that without a revolutionary theory there could be no revolution; we would understand that without a party of a new type, a Marxist-Leninist party or Communist Party, a party of social revolution, a party that was able and capable of mobilizing the American people and leading the American people to the final goal and that of revolution, of smashing the American Government by force and violence and setting up a dictatorship of the proletariat-that was the basic thing.

Now, also they pointed out that we would learn how the Bolsheviks of Russia did legal work and illegal work, how they worked in the open, some were Communists, and at the time they had some in the same union and organization not known as Communists, how they used the legal organizations of the people to propagandize the people. Also we were taught how Lenin taught the Bolsheviks how to retreat. There were certain times that they had to retreat.

One, as an example they gave us, was the Breslau Pact, where the Germans-Lenin convinced the Bolsheviks that the best thing to do was to make a peace, although it was a hard peace, but to make this peace in order to regroup and gather their forces and prepare them, that if there was a counterrevolution when the war ended, they could move forward.

They also taught us the importance of strikes, how an economic strike for the just demands of the workers-that the workers wanted $1.50 an hour, they wanted safety conditions in the factory; these were just demands and how to use these demands to foment a strike, how to build this strike into a political strike, into a general strike, and then how a general strike could develop into a citywide uprising, and how a citywide uprising could develop into an armed uprising, and the necessity in the question of an armed uprising, the necessity that you couldn't have an armed uprising unless you had arms, how to get arms. The History of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union is the basic book used by the Communists; that gives them the answer. It is not the Leninism that can only be applied in Russia; it is applied by the Communist Parties of the world. It gives them the answer of when to retreat, when to go forward-for example now. The Communists— the history of the Communist Party, if you look there-after the 1905 revolution, when the revolution was broken and crushed, Lenin taught the Communists how to go deep underground, how to use the legal organizations, the unions, the fraternal organizations, civic organizations, of the people to carry out propaganda and how to use the Russian literature.

Mr. VELDE. The committee will be in recess at this point for 10 minutes.

(Whereupon, at 10:32 a. m., the hearing was recessed, to reconvene at 10: 42 a. m.)

(The hearing reconvened at 10:41 a. m.)

Mr. VELDE. Proceed, Mr. Counsel.

Mr. TAVENNER. Mr. Rosser, you have explained the course of training offered by the Communist Party on the lower levels in the counties and the State. Do you know of any other types of schools that the Communist Party maintained on a State level?

Mr. ROSSER. Well, the Communist Party in each county in California-and this is true in all the big industrial cities, States-has