Mr. WHEELER. I refuse on the grounds I mentioned earlier.
Mr. JACKSON. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Scherer.

Mr. SCHERER. I have no further questions.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Doyle.

Mr. DOYLE. When you were a student at the University of Paris or afterward did you travel to the Soviet Union ever?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that question for the reason I mentioned earlier.

Mr. DOYLE. How many times did you travel there while you were studying in France?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.) Mr. WHEELER. I answered that question, sir.

Mr. DOYLE. Did you study in Germany as well as in France while you were a Rhodes scholar?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the grounds I mentioned earlier.

Mr. DOYLE. The Rhodes scholarship of which you were a beneficiary is furnished by the United States Government; isn't it? (At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.) Mr. WHEELER. The answer is "No, sir."

Mr. DOYLE. It was furnished by Cecil Rhodes, wasn't it, an Englishman? Is that the scholarship under which you attended the University of Paris?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. I believe so, sir.

Mr. DOYLE. Now that you remember that so clearly, is your memory clear as to whether or not you were a member of any professional society as a result of your scholarship attainments, or don't you still remember?

Mr. WHEELER. I don't remember any. I don't believe that I was a member of any.

Mr. DOYLE. Are you now a member of any such society?

Mr. WHEELER. No, sir.

Mr. DOYLE. Have you ever been?

Mr. WHEELER. I don't remember ever being a member of any professional society.

Mr. DOYLE. What was your classification as a civil-service employee of the United States Government?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that, sir, for the reason mentioned earlier.

Mr. SCHERER. I am going to ask again, Mr. Chairman, that he be directed to answer that question.

Mr. VELDE. Yes; I can see no reason why the answer to that question would tend to incriminate you, so you are directed to answer the question.

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that for the reason mentioned earlier.

Mr. DOYLE. Who was your direct superior while you were in the employ of the United States Government in whatever department you worked in? What was his or her name?

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that, sir, for the reason mentioned earlier.

Mr. DOYLE. What was your salary rate? What was your annual compensation when you worked for the United States Government as a civil-service employee?

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that, sir.

Mr. DOYLE. Are you now occupied in any business or profession for which you were especially trained in your studies when you were a Rhodes scholar?

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that, sir.

Mr. VELDE. Mr. Tavenner, do you have any more questions?
Mr. TAVENNER. Yes, I have another question.

Were you employed by the Senate Banking and Currency Committee beginning in May 1940, extending for 7 years thereafter?

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that question, sir, for the reason mentioned earlier.

Mr. TAVENNER. What is the basis of your contention that your employment by a Senate committee might tend to incriminate you? (At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.) Mr. WHEELER. I stand on my earlier answer, sir.

Mr. TAVENNER. I think I should state that it may possibly be my duty to attempt to test whether or not your contention is based on any real fear of self-incrimination as a result of answering such a question. Mr. JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, in light of counsel's statement, I ask that the witness be directed to answer that question.

Mr. VELDE. The Chair concurs, and you are directed to answer the question.

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.) Mr. WHEELER. Repeat the question, please.

Mr. TAVENNER. Will you read it, please?

(The question was read by the reporter as follows:)

Were you employed by the Senate Banking and Currency Committee beginning in May 1940, extending for 7 years thereafter?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. I stand on the fifth amendment and will not be a witness against myself.

Mr. TAVENNER. In other words, you refuse to give to this committee any information which might enable them to come to the conclusion as to whether you have any real basis of fear of self-incrimination to answer such a question?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.) Mr. WHEELER. I stand on my earlier answer, sir.

Mr. TAVENNER. Were you employed by Senator Wagner, who was then the chairman of that committee?

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that for the reason given a moment ago.

Mr. JACKSON. Were you ever in Washington, D. C.?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that, sir.

Mr. SCHERER. I ask that you direct him to answer that question. Mr. VELDE. Yes; certainly you are directed to answer that question. I don't think it could possibly incriminate you to be in Washington, D. C.; otherwise there would be a lot of us sitting up here in danger of being incriminated, and therefore you are directed to answer the question.

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer on the grounds mentioned a moment ago.

Mr. TAVENNER. Was not the Senate Banking and Currency Committee between May 1940 and 1941 or 1942 engaged in conducting an investigation to ascertain facts to present to Congress as a basis for legislation?

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that, sir, for the reasons mentioned earlier.

Mr. TAVENNER. To answer the question of your knowledge of that you seriously contend might tend to incriminate you?

Mr. WHEELER. I stand on the answer I gave a moment ago.

Mr. TAVENNER. Actually, Mr. Wheeler, you have just determined that you will not answer any question that this committee desires to ask you, isn't that the fact?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.) Mr. TAVENNER. Will you answer that, please?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. Well, sir, I am answering these questions to the best of my ability on the advice of counsel, and I repeat the answer I gave you a moment ago—I refuse to answer for the reasons given some time ago.

Mr. SCHERER. Were you passing any information to the Russian Government at the time you were working for the Senate Banking Committee?

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that, sir, on the grounds mentioned earlier.

Mr. VELDE. Do you have anything more, Mr. Counsel?

Mr. TAVENNER. No.

Mr. JACKSON. Mr. Chairman, may I comment that I do not believe that the question asked by the gentleman from Ohio was at all farfetched in the face of sworn testimony that the witness who is before us today did exactly that. It may be a very humorous matter to some, but there is some very serious testimony on record.

Mr. VELDE. Let me add, Mr. Jackson and members of the committee that this witness' testimony

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. VELDE (continuing). Or rather, refusal to testify can only lead any reasonable man to believe that you must be engaged in some nefarious activities at the present time, some criminal activities at the present time.

(Representative Donald L. Jackson left the hearing room at this

point.)

Mr. VELDE. I suppose it would be futile to ask you any further questions relating to your Communist Party membership or espionage activities as claimed by Miss Bentley, but let me ask you this one question, and I wish you would consider answering it: Do you consider yourself at the present time to be a loyal American citizen?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. SCHERER. Does he have to ask counsel whether he should answer that question?

Mr. VELDE. Well, of course, Mr. Scherer, the witness has a right to confer with counsel.

Mr. SCHERER. I mean, whether he is a loyal American citizen?

Mr. WHEELER. Are you asking me my opinion of my own status in the community?

Mr. VELDE. Yes.

Mr. WHEELER. My opinion is I certainly am.

Mr. VELDE. I ask you then if you are a loyal American citizen, don't you feel it is your duty to give information about the Soviet conspiracy, the Soviet espionage system that has been operating in this country?

(Representative Donald L. Jackson returned to the hearing room at this point.)

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. Well, sir, you have the power of Congress here, and I don't care to get into a political argument with you. I will answer your questions, however, to the best of my ability.

Mr. JACKSON. Have you answered the questions of the committee to the best of your ability?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.) Mr. WHEELER. I have, and as I have been advised.

Mr. VELDE. Let me ask you then this question: Do you consider that you were a loyal American citizen during the time that you knew Miss Bentley?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. Well, sir, it seems to me that question is one of the "Have you stopped beating your wife" type of questions.

Mr. VELDE. Well, will you answer the question?

(At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. If you will break it up into its component parts, I will answer the component parts.

Mr. JACKSON. What was the date on which Miss Bentley testified? Mr. SCHERER. About his activities?

Mr. VELDE. Let me ask the question this way: Did you consider yourself between 1940 and 1945 to be a loyal American citizen? (At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.) Mr. WHEELER. My opinion, sir, is that I was.

Mr. VELDE. Then will you answer the question and give the committee of Congress the information: Did you pass any papers, secret papers, to Elizabeth Bentley?

At this point Mr. Wheeler conferred with Mr. Andersen.)

Mr. WHEELER. I refuse to answer that, sir, for the grounds mentioned earlier.

Mr. VELDE. Let me make this final observation, that your refusal to testify about matters affecting the security of this Nation to which you claim to be loyal certainly does point up the need for additional security legislation.

Is there any reason why this witness should be detained further, Mr. Counsel?

Mr. TAVENNER. No, sir.

Mr. VELDE. If not, the witness is dismissed, and the committee will stand in adjournment until tomorrow morning at 9:30.

(Whereupon, at 5:20 p. m., the hearing was recessed until 9:30 a. m., Wednesday, December 2, 1953.)

3077, 3078, 3081
3138-3152